"Misgendering" is now a federal offense

[theprestige]

Language and culture change, the young bring the changes - older folk have always struggled with this simple fact.

Doesn't make it any less obnoxious or anti-social when older folk in positions of power try to force a language or culture change on people, with threat of sanctions if they don't comply.

"Lanugage and culture change over time" is never an excuse for instituting thought police and criminalizing speech.

 

[d4m10n]

"Lanugage and culture change over time" is never an excuse for instituting thought police and criminalizing speech.

Indeed. There is a huge difference between "English speakers sometimes use pronouns to refer to gender rather than sex" and "Students and faculty are hereby mandated to use pronouns to refer to gender rather than sex."

 

[Thermal]

I think I said this earlier, but they could have easily avoided problems by rewording to "use of appellations which you have been advised causes distress to the recipient may be considered harassing behavior, and may be met with administrative review and possibly disciplinary measures". Or something like that.

 

[Darat]

Pretty sure the youth aren't writing Mt. Holyoke policy, though they may be making demands.

And I never claimed they were, albeit I don't know the age of the faculty staff, do you?

My comment was not specifically about the policy wording, thought the thread had long past keeping to only that...

 

[d4m10n]

My comment was not specifically about the policy wording, thought the thread had long past keeping to only that...

If the OP happens to be a counterexample to the claim you are making, it might be worth reconsidering your position.

 

[jt512]

Pretty sure the youth aren't writing Mt. Holyoke policy, though they may be making demands.

The "youth" are older than than you think. The generation that now inhabits the administrative and early- to mid- career academic ranks was trained (especially in the humanities and social sciences) by a generation that was already steeped in wokeism. And there is definitely an age gradient wrt wokeism. The new breed of assistant professor (the entry-level tenure-track rank in the U.S.) is very woke and very demanding.

 

[theprestige]

The "youth" are older than than you think. The generation that now inhabits the administrative and early- to mid- career academic ranks was trained (especially in the humanities and social sciences) by a generation that was already steeped in wokeism. And there is definitely an age gradient wrt wokeism. The new breed of assistant professor (the entry-level tenure-track rank in the U.S.) is very woke and very demanding.

Yes, and it seems to me that a lot of these heavy-handed attempts to compel Correct Speech are coming from a generation now in power. People who were raised to believe that their Correct Speech was going to become normalized in their lifetime. Now they're upset that this hasn't happened. Kind of like Lenin wanting to bootstrap Marxism, rather than waiting for the the prophesied apotheosis to emerge organically from the industrial revolution.

 

[theprestige]

In any case, what we're discussing here is very much not a case of language shifting organically over time as youths become adults. Darat's remark is completely unrelated to the topic of the thread.

 

[d4m10n]

In any case, what we're discussing here is very much not a case of language shifting organically over time as youths become adults.

Precisely; no need for institutional sanctions if the language is shifting on its own.

 

[smartcooky]

Factually false. The concept of gender as distinct from biological sex goes back till at least the 1960s, and used by scientists, social and otherwise.

Have a gander at this chart showing the use of the term "gender" in the English language. You'll note it starts to skyrocket up in usage right around the time your cherished (and somewhat obselete) Oxford was printed.

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=7&case_insensitive=on&content=gender



Great. And let's look at the first hit for the 21st century's definition of "gender". Comes from that newfangled interwebs, there, Jehosephat. Oh look, it is cited from Oxford Languages:



Says it all, out here in the 21st century. Please harumph while adjusting the onion on your belt.

That you have to dial the clock back over 40 years makes my point for me. You think you're going to find relevant definitions for smartphones or the World Wide Web in that 1982 dictionary, ducky?



Conceded. You are likely not doing it specifically to be rude. You're just being dishonest, or you don't see the glaring flaws in your justification. Since you keep taking the extra time to snip out my DNA observation, we'll go over it again below.



And the line you are drawing is absolutely, 100% NOT on the scientific, biological sex line. It is absolutely, 100% at the point of convincing presentation, ignoring the scientific, biological fact in its entirety.

Put it to the real world test; you see a trans woman. Looks like a woman, in terms of dress and boobs (that you can't tell are real or implants or a stuffed bra). How do you address them? He or she? Do you demand a genital inspection, or give them a questionnaire about their reconstructive surgeries, presumably demanding evidence?

The scientific, biological reality is their DNA, not having a dick or not. THAT'S the hard scientific line. But you draw the line at their convincing presentation, by your own words.

And as I've said earlier, I don't even disagree with you. But you don't care a whit about the only relevant, scientific, biological fact : their genetic makeup. You care, by your own description, about a convincing presentation. Myself and others also weigh presentation heavily, but we are not requiring them to drop trou before we call them a "she". If they can't afford, or have not yet reached the point of the slice and dice, that's okay with me. As I said earlier with "Babette", it took me a while to not see a man in a dress. But I fully acknowledged her as a legitimate woman before she even got her implants (and no, I've never even asked if she got the Johnson cut off, because it seriously doesn't matter. I'm sure she did if she could afford it, but it is not the "line drawn" of her sincerity. She already demonstrates that.

I can't be bothered wasting any more time addressing your irrelevant crap. I successfully pointing out the falsehoods in your post. Once again, you dishonestly mischaracterize what I said.

BTW, timed yourself over any miles lately

 

[smartcooky]

Doesn't make it any less obnoxious or anti-social when older folk in positions of power try to force a language or culture change on people, with threat of sanctions if they don't comply.

"Lanugage and culture change over time" is never an excuse for instituting thought police and criminalizing speech.

Indeed. There is a huge difference between "English speakers sometimes use pronouns to refer to gender rather than sex" and "Students and faculty are hereby mandated to use pronouns to refer to gender rather than sex."

Yes, and it seems to me that a lot of these heavy-handed attempts to compel Correct Speech are coming from a generation now in power. People who were raised to believe that their Correct Speech was going to become normalized in their lifetime. Now they're upset that this hasn't happened. Kind of like Lenin wanting to bootstrap Marxism, rather than waiting for the the prophesied apotheosis to emerge organically from the industrial revolution.

Precisely; no need for institutional sanctions if the language is shifting on its own.

Yep, and yet here we are - in a world where the thought police agenda is being enforced using polices of deplatforming and dismissing from academia, all "heretics", i.e. those who dare to speak out against the Holy Creed of the Gender Ideology Cult. Outside of academia, they bully and intimidate employers to dismiss heretics among their employees, and use the actual police, and create laws to arrest those heretics.

 

[Darat]

If the OP happens to be a counterexample to the claim you are making, it might be worth reconsidering your position.

But it is not a counterexample of the claim I made.

 

[Darat]

Precisely; no need for institutional sanctions if the language is shifting on its own.

How do you think things change in society, you think it just happens as if by magic?

 

[plague311]

I'll ask this again, what ******* sanctions? I keep hearing people in this thread bitch and whine about how these poor, innocent students will be bastardized and beaten by the, what's the dumb ass word we're using now? "Wokeism", that's it. Yet the actual policy doesn't list any penalties at all. It's merely asking for instances to be reported.

Not to bring it up, again, but if you don't like the policy don't ******* go there. None of you are invited, none of you are wanted, and none of you are even allowed to attend on campus unless you become the thing you hate most.

Also, smartcooky, thermal addressed your **** head on, and dead ass accurate. I'm not a fan of backpatting someone, but you got your ass handed to you and are now just making excuses to make the pain stop.

 

[theprestige]

How do you think things change in society, you think it just happens as if by magic?

That's how I think language shifts organically in society. "Literally" didn't become synonymous with "figuratively" because university administrators started appealing to federal regulations and threatening sanctions if people didn't submit to the new prescription.

 

[The Atheist]

1. Transwomen are NOT women, they are biological males. Irrefutable scientific fact

That's the sticking point every time.

They're not content with having equal rights, they want to go a step further and be women.

See how it works out when they visit their gynaecologist for prostate cancer.

You obviously haven't seen the videos I've seen that men have posted of themselves in what were previously female safe spaces, bragging about the erection it's giving them.

Thanks to hanging around some of the seedier parts of the internet I've engaged a couple of those people in conversation and they absolutely exist.

That's another of the most absurd things about insisting all trans women are women - it discounts the known fact that men are far more likely to be sexual predators than women, and an unknown but significant number of them will pretend to be trans to engage in sexual deviancy.

And in the end, nothing changes their DNA, they still have a prostate and no female genitals.

The whole thing is ******* absurd and if I ever find out who started the trans threads here Imma punch him in the throat.

 

[theprestige]

That's the sticking point every time.

They're not content with having equal rights, they want to go a step further and be women.

See how it works out when they visit their gynaecologist for prostate cancer.

Some females have ovaries. Some females have prostates. Stop stereotyping. /s

 

[d4m10n]

But it is not a counterexample of the claim I made.

If you are correct that "the young bring the changes" to language, I must be left wondering when the young got the chance to say whether these emergent linguistic taboos should be elevated from informal rules of etiquette (which may be safely ignored at certain keg parties) to incidents which must be reported to the Assistant Vice President for Compliance at their university.

Stepping back from the specific to the general, it seems to me that the concepts of "misgendering, deadnaming, and mispronouning" did not emerge from youth culture at all, but rather from the pens and keyboards of scholars engaged in various critical studies fields. Eventually, they made it to Tumblr and TikTok and Twitter and thence to the broader culture.

 

[The Atheist]

So you believe. But as others have said here, it's damn near guaranteed you clock someone wrong once in a while.

I was once introduced to a Papua New Guinean with a native name that conferred no idea as to gender, and I mistakenly thought the person was a bloke.

It wasn't until her lesbian lover turned up I realised my mistake. She was all girl, but looked more manly than a lot of blokes.

 

[angrysoba]

I was once introduced to a Papua New Guinean with a native name that conferred no idea as to gender, and I mistakenly thought the person was a bloke.

It wasn't until her lesbian lover turned up I realised my mistake. She was all girl, but looked more manly than a lot of blokes.

Huh? I’m trying to figure out the situation here.

You thought you were talking to a man until her girlfriend showed up? What was it about this meeting that made you realize you were talking to a woman?