Declining IQ of college grads

[Thermal]

I was confused and sought clarification, thanks to watching way too many USA trials I know that you have to meet a certain level of achievement to "graduate" high school, given the topic of this thread it had me wondering if some folk are saying High schools now offer degree courses!

Some of our funny accent posters seem to think 'graduate' is a strange way to describe completing high school? I mean, it's not much different to my ear than a certification that you completed the curriculum. Maybe American ears are a little deadened to how it sounds pretentious or something along those lines? Sounds pretty pedestrian to me.

One of my kids actually bagged nearly half a year of college credits in high school (exceptionally driven little whelp who's starting a Doctoral program in Carnegie-Mellon now). Might not exactly be a degree course, but they were for sure accepted for undergrad at Boston College!

 

[Darat]

Some of our funny accent posters seem to think 'graduate' is a strange way to describe completing high school? I mean, it's not much different to my ear than a certification that you completed the curriculum. Maybe American ears are a little deadened to how it sounds pretentious or something along those lines? Sounds pretty pedestrian to me.

One of my kids actually bagged nearly half a year of college credits in high school (exceptionally driven little whelp who's starting a Doctoral program in Carnegie-Mellon now). Might not exactly be a degree course, but they were for sure accepted for undergrad at Boston College!

In the UK we have started to have "graduation" ceremonies in secondary education schools (alongside proms, it shows how powerful USA cultural exports can be) but everyone in the UK "graduates" high school and we don't have anything like your "college credits" system for entering university.

 

[zooterkin]

Some of our funny accent posters seem to think 'graduate' is a strange way to describe completing high school? I mean, it's not much different to my ear than a certification that you completed the curriculum. Maybe American ears are a little deadened to how it sounds pretentious or something along those lines? Sounds pretty pedestrian to me.

One of my kids actually bagged nearly half a year of college credits in high school (exceptionally driven little whelp who's starting a Doctoral program in Carnegie-Mellon now). Might not exactly be a degree course, but they were for sure accepted for undergrad at Boston College!

I guess the thing is, how can you graduate before you become an undergraduate?

 

[Thermal]

In the UK we have started to have "graduation" ceremonies in secondary education schools (alongside proms, it shows how powerful USA cultural exports can be)

A formal dance for school kids is our thing? I thought we got that from you guys?

but everyone in the UK "graduates" high school and we don't have anything like your "college credits" system for entering university.

I think that's because you are more standardized in your educational system? Over here, a high school graduate might have math courses anywhere from the simple algebra level to Calculus 2. Myself and two of my kids had Calc 2 in high school. When I started night school (many years ago), I had to retake calc 1&2 because the college didnt acknowledge high school courses, wanting to make sure you learned it to collegiate standards. Of course, it was the same damned thing and I just paid to retake what I had already done. Nowadays, the schools are simply acknowledging that the AP student has already met the collegiate requirements to save the kid some time and money.

I guess the thing is, how can you graduate before you become an undergraduate?

"Undergrad" is strictly a shorthand and informal relative term, when referring to the school you went to for your Bachelor's (4 year college) degree, to differentiate where you went for Masters or beyond. No one says "undergrad" unless clarifying that it was a different school than their yet higher educational institution.

You guys seem to object to our use of graduation as of there is some sense of finality to it? I see it more like graduated marks on a beaker. Complete one level, and you might stop there, or go on to the next level, and graduate that.

All wildly off topic, of course, but we seem to have at least three posters who think Americans use "graduate" oddly and I can't quite see why.

 

[zooterkin]

"Undergrad" is strictly a shorthand and informal relative term, when referring to the school you went to for your Bachelor's (4 year college) degree, to differentiate where you went for Masters or beyond. No one says "undergrad" unless clarifying that it was a different school than their yet higher educational institution.

Er, no. "Undergraduate" is a specific term for someone studying for their first degree, usually a Bachelor's degree (in the UK, usually a three year course, can be done in two, four years if including a year in industry, some subjects, e.g. medicine, can be longer). Therefore, referring to someone in education 'graduating' generally refers to attaining their first degree.

 

[Thermal]

Er, no. "Undergraduate" is a specific term for someone studying for their first degree, usually a Bachelor's degree (in the UK, usually a three year course, can be done in two, four years if including a year in industry, some subjects, e.g. medicine, can be longer). Therefore, referring to someone in education 'graduating' generally refers to attaining their first degree.

Undergrads may be a specific term, but a fairly pointless one. Of course the students would be "undergrads". If they had graduated, they wouldn't be in the goddamned school anymore. But they are almost universally referred to as students, unless making the distinction between a Bachelor's at one school versus higher studies at another ("I did my undergrad at BC, and Doctorate at Carnegie.")

Do your institutions call themselves "Undergrad Unis"? Is that emblazoned on their logos? Are the hundreds of posters here who refer to being "a student at uni" in need of correction, too?

 

[Elaedith]

Undergrads may be a specific term, but a fairly pointless one. Of course the students would be "undergrads". If they had graduated, they wouldn't be in the goddamned school anymore. But they are almost universally referred to as students, unless making the distinction between a Bachelor's at one school versus higher studies at another ("I did my undergrad at BC, and Doctorate at Carnegie.")

Do your institutions call themselves "Undergrad Unis"? Is that emblazoned on their logos? Are the hundreds of posters here who refer to being "a student at uni" in need of correction, too?

They will still be in school if they are doing postgraduate study (which you call graduate study). You can do an undergraduate degree and a postgraduate degree at the same university, hence the need to distinguish undergraduate students from postgraduate students

 

[Darat]

A formal dance for school kids is our thing? I thought we got that from you guys?
...snip...

For (state) secondary education schools that's 100% down to USA cultural influence, seems to have started sometime over the last 20 years.

 

[Thermal]

They will still be in school if they are doing postgraduate study (which you call graduate study). You can do an undergraduate degree and a postgraduate degree at the same university, hence the need to distinguish undergraduate students from postgraduate students

Yes, obviously, and that's actually what I keep saying. "Undergrad" is only meaningful when comparing with post grads.

Do you think you can show a single 4 year college/uni that calls itself an "Undergrad" school? A pic of their signage or t-shirt would do nicely.

 

[zooterkin]

Yes, obviously, and that's actually what I keep saying. "Undergrad" is only meaningful when comparing with post grads.

Well, it also compares with people who haven't started or never took a degree level course.

Do you think you can show a single 4 year college/uni that calls itself an "Undergrad" school? A pic of their signage or t-shirt would do nicely.

I'm not sure why I would want to do that.

To return to the point, which was initially Darat's confusion at someone referring to a 'high school degree', which you agreed was not a term in use. You then said you thought 'graduate' was an appropriate term to use for someone finishing high school; I simply pointed out that, at least in the UK, and possibly now historically, 'graduate' mostly applies to attaining a first degree. It does seem that the term is creeping down the academic scale, I've been invited to attend a graduation ceremony for my HND, which is basically 2/3 of a Bachelor's degree, and I wouldn't be surprised to find UK schools using it, too.

ETA: There's also some further confusion, in that I've not been completely clear in the above when I'm using 'graduate' as a noun or verb, and I don't have time to clarify now!

 

[Carrot Flower King]

This is definitely veering into the "English: US/UK/Australian" territory...

 

[Carrot Flower King]

Between September 1976 and early June 1979 I was an undergraduate at Sheffield, while I studied for and passed exams in my degree subject (s); for a few weeks after results came out until the actual degree ceremony, which I didn't attend, I was a graduand; after the awards I became a graduate, as I had graduated, even though I was awarded "in absentia".

Several of my friends and acquaintances went on to be post-graduates at Sheffield and other universities, studying and researching for master's and doctorates or PGCEs (post-graduate certificate in education, i.e. qualifying as teachers by that particular route).

I later obtained a post-graduate diploma from Durham by doing a post-graduate course, during which time I could have been described as a post-graduate student, the only time this has been applicable to me.

That is how the UK system works. Well, worked when I was involved...

ETA 'Cos I'm old and old skool, my nursing qualification is not degree-level, but was obtained by the old "apprenticeship" model as was the case at the time and after I had the above-mentioned degree. This is the topic or topics for a whole other set of arguments...

 

[Thermal]

Well, it also compares with people who haven't started or never took a degree level course.

...you would call them undergrads?

I'm not sure why I would want to do that.

You probably wouldn't. The point was that I'm saying "undergrad" is not a common term outside of comparing with graduate studies. Others want to act like it is more the norm. It isn't. 'Cause it doesn't get used elsewhere, where it would be expected if it was more common.

To return to the point, which was initially Darat's confusion at someone referring to a 'high school degree', which you agreed was not a term in use. You then said you thought 'graduate' was an appropriate term to use for someone finishing high school; I simply pointed out that, at least in the UK, and possibly now historically, 'graduate' mostly applies to attaining a first degree. It does seem that the term is creeping down the academic scale, I've been invited to attend a graduation ceremony for my HND, which is basically 2/3 of a Bachelor's degree, and I wouldn't be surprised to find UK schools using it, too.

ETA: There's also some further confusion, in that I've not been completely clear in the above when I'm using 'graduate' as a noun or verb, and I don't have time to clarify now!

I think you missed some stuff. Novaphile actually started this derail saying Americans seem to "graduate" a lot (in scare quotes). Darat also used "graduate" in scare quotes, also as if questioning its meaning. Having heard that before, I took the opportunity to ask about the distinction you are making, which maybe belongs in the Various English thread.

I suppose Darat said it most clearly: UK students graduate from secondary school, but are not thought of as graduates. A graduate, in the UK, means someone who has attained a college degree. So the term "high school graduate", meaning someone who has graduated high school, is not a graduate to you guys. Ok. Just curious why such a teensy usage difference needed mild scorn..

 

[Darat]

....snip... It does seem that the term is creeping down the academic scale, I've been invited to attend a graduation ceremony for my HND, which is basically 2/3 of a Bachelor's degree, and I wouldn't be surprised to find UK schools using it, too.

...snip...

Pah - a HND is as good as a degree from any nansy-pansy university. But thinking back to my days getting an HND (when I was at college doing my A levels - it was so I could work part time at the college as a lab technician - so about 40 years ago) the only graduation ceremony was getting pissed at the pub across from the Tech, but that was a weekly "passing out" ceremony.

 

[zooterkin]

...you would call them undergrads?

Only if they're studying for a first degree.


(I'm actually not sure what I am; I have a BSc, and I'm studying for a BA. Normally, studying for a BA I'd be an undergraduate, but I'm already a graduate. )

 

[Thermal]

Only if they're studying for a first degree.


(I'm actually not sure what I am; I have a BSc, and I'm studying for a BA. Normally, studying for a BA I'd be an undergraduate, but I'm already a graduate. )

An undergrad graduate? Maybe pick up a minor in philosophy?

 

[Carrot Flower King]

Only if they're studying for a first degree.


(I'm actually not sure what I am; I have a BSc, and I'm studying for a BA. Normally, studying for a BA I'd be an undergraduate, but I'm already a graduate. )

Still an undergrad, as the entry requirements for the BA will not be solely an existing bachelor's degree, but will include A-levels and the rest.

If we go any further into this we'll be into double secret suspension land and ranting about the Germans attacking Pearl Harbour after getting stoned with Donald Sutherland...Or something...

 

[Thermal]

Still an undergrad, as the entry requirements for the BA will not be solely an existing bachelor's degree, but will include A-levels and the rest.

Although I'd agree that having not met the graduation requirements for the BA, he would be an undergrad student, we don't apply "undergrad" to someone working on their Doctoral thesis, do we?

If we go any further into this we'll be into double secret suspension land and ranting about the Germans attacking Pearl Harbour after getting stoned with Donald Sutherland...Or something...

Who's going to suspended two admins? Shemp?

 

[Thermal]

Returning to the actual OP topic: others are as skeptical.of 102 being the mean IQ (the method cited by the meta-analysis researchers) as I am. If it's an actual mean, and we know damn right well there are 140+ IQs running around in everything north of a community College, they got a problem explaining the corresponding amount of cognitively disabled people graduating college to average that low.

One posed problem was that they used the modern WAIS to compare with the 1939 scoring. The WAIS, of course, did not exist at the time, so a comparative scoring is not realistic.

https://greyenlightenment.com/2024/01/08/on-average-undergraduate-students-intelligence-is-merely-average-analysis/

Eta: only far to point out that the author and indeed the site are a bit questionable on several grounds, but the points made are still valid

Eta le deux: trying to find the original study (which was easy enough), the problem I'm having is finding if it was peer reviewed. Seems everything links back ultimately to a preprint released on xitter. Will try later when off phone

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/378173544_Meta-analysis_On_average_undergraduate_students'_intelligence_is_merely_average

Tertiary eta: the preprint claims to have been peer reviewed by Frontiers in Psychology, but the link goes 404.

 

[novaphile]

An undergrad graduate? Maybe pick up a minor in philosophy?

I did that as part of my first degree, two majors and a minor.

Only just scraped up enough points for the minor in philosophy.