Does 'rape culture' accurately describe (many) societies?

Ziggurat said:
But you keep referring to "porn suggesting sexual activity with children".
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The focus regarding that was it was described as extremely harmful - normalizing adult / minor sex.
"Experts". Lots of people claim to
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Could you clarify this.
Possibly not that specific crime, but they're likely to lash out in other ways, including sexual assault. People with poor impulse control and antisocial tendencies are going to cause problems one way or another. The inspiration for their particular misbehavior isn't really the problem, their poor impulse control and antisocial tendencies are. And factors like the lack of a father in the home are much bigger contributors to that than internet porn.
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We could go down a rabbit hole with this. A world without porn would be a very different one to now. Much else might be different too. Porn has been cited in a good number (even 50%) of divorce cases in the US - which might put dad out the picture.
I'm basically in agreement with this. But that's not really rape culture. It's more hookup culture.
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Hook-up culture and a culture that trivializes sexual abuse, assault and rape...which equates with what many define as rape culture.

You didn't comment on:
Former victims Commissioner Dame Vera Baird said (2021):

“Last year, I warned that we were witnessing the effective decriminalisation of rape. Nothing in the past year has swayed me from that perspective. The uncomfortable truth is that if you are raped in Britain today, your chances of seeing justice are slim.”

Everyone's invited:

"Sexual abuse online and harassment 'normalised' in schools - 9 out of 10 girls had received unsolicited images and been subject to sexist name calling (Ofsted report, June 2021).

One child is raped in school on every school day, and in primary schools alone three sexual assaults are reported to the police every school day (Women and Equalities Select Committee report, 2016)."

Estimates published by WHO indicate that globally about 1 in 3 (30%) of women worldwide have been subjected to either physical and/or sexual intimate partner violence or non-partner sexual violence in their lifetime.
 
theprestige said:
There's also a nuance to obscenity: A lot of people who are comfortable consuming extreme pornography in privacy or with the polite fiction of anonymity would consider it obscene to display that same pornography in public, or to children.

It does not follow from the proclivity of hotel guests to consume hotel porn, that those guests don't still consider it obscene.

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A lot of people do not frown on social drunkenness, but still consider public drunkenness a shameful condition.
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I agree. The Miller Test is not fit for purpose.
 
Checkmite said:
Because the term "obscenity", by definition, describes things that offend common sensibilities. If most people are okay with something, it's not obscene. That's why porn in general has not been banned but material featuring actual children is, for instance.
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Not everyone is watching porn. Watching tends to desensitize and that will be reinforced with masturbation...viz.: oxytocin. With a huge majority of society hooked, inferring that therefore it isn't obscene is meaningless.

It is. While things involving choking, implied incest, and other such problems are certainly more common than I'd personally prefer, it would be just plain wrong to assert that "vanilla" content as you call it has been altogether flooded out or reduced to some small minority of the content that's available.
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Even assuming you are right the more extreme material is very popular.
 
Mozart, Beethoven and Bach tend to come out on top when lovers of classical music vote. Let's ask the ones who did indeed vote for those composers if those composers are actually the best? Oh, they are? How surprising.

Or is my analogy wrong (the Miiler Test in case you haven't been following)?
 
Poem said:
The focus regarding that was it was described as extremely harmful - normalizing adult / minor sex.
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You keep moving the goalpost. Stop that. Porn of adults portrayed as adults doesn't normalize adult/minor sex. So what kind of porn are you talking about? You keep switching.

Could you clarify this.
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Experts told us lobotomies were a humane treatment for mental illness. Experts told us repressed memories and satanic cults were a thing. Experts told us that sterilizing mentally ill children in the name of inclusivity was a good idea.

I don't accept expertise just because it's claimed.

We could go down a rabbit hole with this. A world without porn would be a very different one to now. Much else might be different too.
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Sure, but you haven't shown how.

Porn has been cited in a good number (even 50%) of divorce cases in the US - which might put dad out the picture.
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And how much of that is really because of porn? People tend to scapegoat easy targets. They lie, even to themselves, about what their motives actually are.

Hook-up culture and a culture that trivializes sexual abuse, assault and rape...which equates with what many define as rape culture.
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Again, I don't accept bull **** definitions of rape culture which don't actually involve rape.

You didn't comment on:
Former victims Commissioner Dame Vera Baird said (2021):
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And? I'm not going to comment on everything you post. You haven't tied that to porn.

One child is raped in school on every school day, and in primary schools alone three sexual assaults are reported to the police every school day (Women and Equalities Select Committee report, 2016)."
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Here's a little uncomfortable fact for you: rape happened before the advent of porn, and it will happen even if it's banned. Again, I think you're looking in the wrong place for where these pathologies come from, and how to fix them.

Estimates published by WHO indicate that globally about 1 in 3 (30%) of women worldwide have been subjected to either physical and/or sexual intimate partner violence or non-partner sexual violence in their lifetime.
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I've never said that rape culture doesn't exist. It does. Particularly in the middle east. But there is no global culture.
 
Poem said:
Mozart, Beethoven and Bach tend to come out on top when lovers of classical music vote. Let's ask the ones who did indeed vote for those composers if those composers are actually the best? Oh, they are? How surprising.

Or is my analogy wrong (the Miiler Test in case you haven't been following)?
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Of course your analogy is wrong. Analogies are always wrong. I won't belabor this point. Suffice to say you're better off arguing the thing itself in its own terms.
 
In the Movie Buffs video store case (2000) the crucial factor that failed the Miller test was that guests at the local Marriott Hotel were 'disproportionately large consumers of pay-per-view pornographic material'. In a similar way the popularity of internet porn leads to a failure of the test.

I assume, therefore, the only way to ban porn would be if enough people stopped watching and then demanded it be deemed obscene. That very act of mass switch off would go a long way to satisfying the test. The DOJ would be forced to acknowledge society saying 'no' to it.

There are currently 2.38 billion Christians in the world (apparently). Jesus (apparently) said:

But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
 
Poem said:
There are currently 2.38 billion Christians in the world (apparently). Jesus (apparently) said:

But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
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Oh, you used a font color! Now I'm convinced!

More seriously: I'm sure you espouse ideals that you do not always live up to.
 
Ziggurat said:
You keep moving the goalpost. Stop that. Porn of adults portrayed as adults doesn't normalize adult/minor sex. So what kind of porn are you talking about? You keep switching.
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Since I was talking about porn of adults portraying children then I assume there has been some cross-wires.

Experts told us lobotomies were a humane treatment for mental illness. Experts told us repressed memories and satanic cults were a thing. Experts told us that sterilizing mentally ill children in the name of inclusivity was a good idea.

I don't accept expertise just because it's claimed.
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Nor should you. We are still waiting for the experts saying otherwise though.

And how much of that is really because of porn? People tend to scapegoat easy targets. They lie, even to themselves, about what their motives actually are.
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It's not a stretch to assume that most people wouldn't want their spouse getting off on porn.

Again, I don't accept bull **** definitions of rape culture which don't actually involve rape.
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Sexual assault and rape are similar; abuse perhaps less so.

And? I'm not going to comment on everything you post. You haven't tied that to porn.
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It's relevant to rape culture though.

Here's a little uncomfortable fact for you: rape happened before the advent of porn, and it will happen even if it's banned. Again, I think you're looking in the wrong place for where these pathologies come from, and how to fix them.
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Banning sends a clear message that it's unacceptable. Young people need to know that. The type of porn on mainstream is sending another message.
 
theprestige said:
More seriously: I'm sure you espouse ideals that you do not always live up to.
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Indeed.

I'm just stating what it would take to ban porn (assuming I have correctly understood the Miller test and that case cited). By definition, Christians should be fertile soil for a mass movement. I've mentioned Wilberforce before.

Conversely, anyone watching porn is complicit in making it not obscene and therefore legal.
 
Poem said:
Since I was talking about porn of adults portraying children then I assume there has been some cross-wires.
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Yes, that's my point: you are crossing the wires, and I'm asking you to stop doing that.

Nor should you. We are still waiting for the experts saying otherwise though.
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That's not how this works. I don't need an "expert" of my own to critically examine claims.

It's not a stretch to assume that most people wouldn't want their spouse getting off on porn.
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Sure, but the fact that they don't like it doesn't mean much.

Sexual assault and rape are similar
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They canbe, depending on how the former is defined.

It's relevant to rape culture though.
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Maybe, but your definition of rape culture is too broad, and "relevant" is also a pretty damn broad characterization.

Banning sends a clear message that it's unacceptable. Young people need to know that.
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Has banning drugs kept children from trying them? The forbidden fruit isn't always less tempting.

The type of porn on mainstream is sending another message.
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I don't disagree, but what are the effects? I don't see any evidence that it's led to any increase in rapes.
 
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