Transwomen are not Women - Part 14

[Elaedith]

A study preprint released last week finds evidence of testicular cell atrophy in male children treated with puberty blockers, raising concerns about reversibility and reproductive fitness in treated children.

The study is not yet peer-reviewed.

 

[Matthew Best]

Somebody asked JK Rowling her definition of a woman and she has responded, but at such length that I would be sanctioned for copying it all here, so here’s the link and you can read it yourself

https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1776616861888655835?s=46&t=iNhBv78I-gwG-JchhepgyA

 

[Elaedith]

Here's another interesting development concerning the Memorandum of Understanding on conversion therapy (UK).

One the early critics of changing the MUC to include gender identity was James Caspian, who later had his work on detransitioning blocked by the University of Bath. Caspian was concerned that gay children and adolescents and minors with mental health problems and trauma would end up transitioning because therapists were too afraid to question and explore the source of their dysphoria. There is an interesting background to this here on this horrible TERF site and a brochure giving an account of the policy capture behind the MoU provided by some evil bigots. /s

Another critic of the MoU being revised to include gender identity without proper consultation or safeguards for minors was James Esses, who was later expelled from his postgraduate psychotherapy course for his views. A while back he received a settlement from the UK Council for Psychotherapy, who also published a statement confirming that psychotherapists are entitled to hold gender critical views.

UKPC has now published a statement saying that they are withdrawing from the MUC and from the Coalition against Conversion Therapy. This possibly provides some hints at the reasons for their decision to settle.

UKCP says 'there are historical concerns held by a number of UKCP colleges that regulate psychotherapeutic work with children and young people relating to this subject, and which have yet to be addressed – hence our decision to withdraw at this time'. In this rather odd statement, they claim that they were mislead about the MoU not applying to minors and therefore did not consult with practitioners who work with children, then were later informed without consultation that it applies to all ages. Then late last year 'in light of new and emerging evidence which has raised fresh concerns around child safety', they attempted to engage with the Coalition against Conversion Therapy but 'have not been able to'.

So Caspian, Esses, and others now appear fully vindicated. However, Esses remains expelled by the Metanoia Institute.

The new memorandum will hopefully provide clearer safeguards and be more oriented towards psychotheraputic approaches.

 

[Abooga]

It isn't remotely complicated and it comes down to just a few key claims:

1. All human beings have a gender identity—the sex or gender the individual knows themself to be.
   
2. A person’s gender identity is a fundamental component of their identity that is durable and deeply rooted.
   
3. Gender identity cannot be changed by social or medical intervention.
   
4. Someone’s sex or gender is properly understood to be the same as their gender identity.
   

These claims may be true or false but they are fairly straightforward and uncomplicated from where I'm sitting.

Nothing like parsing, say, Judith Butler.

Claim 1 is clearly false. Do you really think every human being in the planet agrees that they have a gender identity? Because that´s what´s required in order for it to be true...

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Somebody asked JK Rowling her definition of a woman and she has responded, but at such length that I would be sanctioned for copying it all here, so here’s the link and you can read it yourself

https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1776616861888655835?s=46&t=iNhBv78I-gwG-JchhepgyA

I thought that was excellent. Very well expressed, explaining her viewpoint without attacking anyone.

It will be labeled "transphobia" and dismissed in two seconds. While attacking her without directly addressing anything she said on its own merit.

 

[theprestige]

Claim 1 is clearly false. Do you really think every human being in the planet agrees that they have a gender identity? Because that´s what´s required in order for it to be true...

I don't think agreement is required. I think it's likely that everyone has a gender identity, whether or not they think about it in those terms, or think about it at all, or agree that they have it.

 

[Abooga]

I don't think agreement is required. I think it's likely that everyone has a gender identity, whether or not they think about it in those terms, or think about it at all, or agree that they have it.

Si even if someone says that they don't have a gender identity you're going to assume that they do? That they are wrong about themselves and you know better? What a strange thing to say...

 

[theprestige]

Si even if someone says that they don't have a gender identity you're going to assume that they do? That they are wrong about themselves and you know better? What a strange thing to say...

I think the mental and emotional effects of biology and society are pretty much inescapable.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Somebody asked JK Rowling her definition of a woman and she has responded, but at such length that I would be sanctioned for copying it all here, so here’s the link and you can read it yourself

https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1776616861888655835?s=46&t=iNhBv78I-gwG-JchhepgyA

It's well worth reading the entire post by Rowling... but for those who can't muster 3 minutes of attention span, here's the meat of it:

I believe a woman is a human being who belongs to the sex class that produces large gametes. It’s irrelevant whether or not her gametes have ever been fertilised, whether or not she’s carried a baby to term, irrelevant if she was born with a rare difference of sexual development that makes neither of the above possible, or if she’s aged beyond being able to produce viable eggs. She is a woman and just as much a woman as the others.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Here's another interesting development concerning the Memorandum of Understanding on conversion therapy (UK).

One the early critics of changing the MUC to include gender identity was James Caspian, who later had his work on detransitioning blocked by the University of Bath. Caspian was concerned that gay children and adolescents and minors with mental health problems and trauma would end up transitioning because therapists were too afraid to question and explore the source of their dysphoria. There is an interesting background to this here on this horrible TERF site and a brochure giving an account of the policy capture behind the MoU provided by some evil bigots. /s

Another critic of the MoU being revised to include gender identity without proper consultation or safeguards for minors was James Esses, who was later expelled from his postgraduate psychotherapy course for his views. A while back he received a settlement from the UK Council for Psychotherapy, who also published a statement confirming that psychotherapists are entitled to hold gender critical views.

UKPC has now published a statement saying that they are withdrawing from the MUC and from the Coalition against Conversion Therapy. This possibly provides some hints at the reasons for their decision to settle.

UKCP says 'there are historical concerns held by a number of UKCP colleges that regulate psychotherapeutic work with children and young people relating to this subject, and which have yet to be addressed – hence our decision to withdraw at this time'. In this rather odd statement, they claim that they were mislead about the MoU not applying to minors and therefore did not consult with practitioners who work with children, then were later informed without consultation that it applies to all ages. Then late last year 'in light of new and emerging evidence which has raised fresh concerns around child safety', they attempted to engage with the Coalition against Conversion Therapy but 'have not been able to'.

So Caspian, Esses, and others now appear fully vindicated. However, Esses remains expelled by the Metanoia Institute.

The new memorandum will hopefully provide clearer safeguards and be more oriented towards psychotheraputic approaches.

:

Every step is a celebration for me.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't think agreement is required. I think it's likely that everyone has a gender identity, whether or not they think about it in those terms, or think about it at all, or agree that they have it.

I don't think everyone has a gender identity, for the same reason that I don't think everyone has a god.

A religionist could say exactly what you said, and it would be just as unverifiable a belief-based position: "I don't think agreement is required. I think it's likely that everyone has a god, whether or not they think about it in those terms, or think about it at all, or agree that they have it."

By taking the position that everyone has a gender identity, even if they disagree with it, you are presumptively enforcing the notion that everyone has an innate sense of being a "woman" or a "man" or "something else completely" and that this innate sense is distinct from any observation and perception of their sexed bodies.

It's tantamount to a theist saying "It doesn't matter that you don't believe in god, because god believes in you"

 

[theprestige]

I'm saying that I think your biological sex informs how you see yourself, and how you see yourself in the context of your community and its views on sex and gender. And that I think your biological sex also informs the other members of your community, and how they see you and react to you. And that I think the social feedback loop is pretty inescapable. You either accept it and encode it (perhaps without ever even really thinking about it), or you find yourselves at odds with it - hence gender dysphoria as a mental disorder.

I think for most people their gender identity is just their biological sex identity. And I think for a lot of people it's so tautological that they never actually think about it in those terms.

"You identify as a man."

"I don't identify as anything. I am a man."

"Yeah, that's called identifying as a man."

"Get out of here with your woke-ass nonsense."

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm saying that I think your biological sex informs how you see yourself, and how you see yourself in the context of your community and its views on sex and gender. And that I think your biological sex also informs the other members of your community, and how they see you and react to you. And that I think the social feedback loop is pretty inescapable. You either accept it and encode it (perhaps without ever even really thinking about it), or you find yourselves at odds with it - hence gender dysphoria as a mental disorder.

Strong disagree, my friend. The understanding and rejection of those social stereotypes, treatment, and barriers is why we had suffrage and civil rights movements in the first place. We *don't* accept and encode those stereotypes.

I've never conformed to social constructs of what females ought to behave like, how we ought to present, what we ought to like. And I've never had gender dysphoria either - I and many other females of the human species recognize that the social constructs are the problem, not my body. Just because I have a female anatomy does not imply that I'm not good at math and that my primary motivator is to make kids.

I think for most people their gender identity is just their biological sex identity. And I think for a lot of people it's so tautological that they never actually think about it in those terms.

"You identify as a man."

"I don't identify as anything. I am a man."

"Yeah, that's called identifying as a man."

"Get out of here with your woke-ass nonsense."

I agree with it being woke-ass nonsense. I disagree that recognition of one's physical reality is an identity.

It might be splitting hairs, but if you want to say that sex is an identifier, I could get behind that. Identifiers are those characteristics by which other people frame you as a unique individual, the means by which one person is disambiguated from another. We all have many identifiers, and some of the most obvious of them are part of what is captured in our various documents that provide proof of identification.

But that's a completely different identity than is implied by the term "gender identity". Gender identity is referring to a psychological identity - the set of beliefs and character aspects which a person wishes for other to view them by. These are usually emotional and behavioral characteristics, sometimes closely linked to a career or vocation.

I like to be viewed as intelligent, thoughtful, confident, knowledgeable, insightful, and an expert in my professional domain. Those are parts of my psychological identity. But they're not part of my physical identification - a stranger can't look at me and see my expertise in my field.

Just like sex and gender, we need to be sure we're talking about the same meaning of the term "identity" here.

 

[sphenisc]

Somebody asked JK Rowling her definition of a woman and she has responded, but at such length that I would be sanctioned for copying it all here, so here’s the link and you can read it yourself

https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1776616861888655835?s=46&t=iNhBv78I-gwG-JchhepgyA

It's well worth reading the entire post by Rowling... but for those who can't muster 3 minutes of attention span, here's the meat of it:

I believe a woman is a human being who belongs to the sex class that produces large gametes. It’s irrelevant whether or not her gametes have ever been fertilised, whether or not she’s carried a baby to term, irrelevant if she was born with a rare difference of sexual development that makes neither of the above possible, or if she’s aged beyond being able to produce viable eggs. She is a woman and just as much a woman as the others.

So nothing about being adult then.

 

[sphenisc]

Somebody asked JK Rowling her definition of a woman and she has responded, but at such length that I would be sanctioned for copying it all here, so here’s the link and you can read it yourself

https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1776616861888655835?s=46&t=iNhBv78I-gwG-JchhepgyA

It's well worth reading the entire post by Rowling... but for those who can't muster 3 minutes of attention span, here's the meat of it:

I believe a woman is a human being who belongs to the sex class that produces large gametes. It’s irrelevant whether or not her gametes have ever been fertilised, whether or not she’s carried a baby to term, irrelevant if she was born with a rare difference of sexual development that makes neither of the above possible, or if she’s aged beyond being able to produce viable eggs. She is a woman and just as much a woman as the others.

So nothing about being adult then.

 

[Abooga]

I'm saying that I think your biological sex informs how you see yourself, and how you see yourself in the context of your community and its views on sex and gender. And that I think your biological sex also informs the other members of your community, and how they see you and react to you. And that I think the social feedback loop is pretty inescapable. You either accept it and encode it (perhaps without ever even really thinking about it), or you find yourselves at odds with it - hence gender dysphoria as a mental disorder.

I think for most people their gender identity is just their biological sex identity. And I think for a lot of people it's so tautological that they never actually think about it in those terms.

"You identify as a man."

"I don't identify as anything. I am a man."

"Yeah, that's called identifying as a man."

"Get out of here with your woke-ass nonsense."

No, that's knowing that I 'm a man, just from looking at myself in the mirror. Not an "innate fundamental part of my identity " if I were to wake up one day magically in a woman's body it wouldn't cause any special discomfort. (I would prefer that to be in an unfit or old man's body for example). I would then (after looking at the mirror) know that I was a woman. Nothing about "identity" in all of this. Just observing reality.

 

[Emily's Cat]

So nothing about being adult then.

Is that where you're going to plant your flag?

 

[Emily's Cat]

No, that's knowing that I 'm a man, just from looking at myself in the mirror. Not an "innate fundamental part of my identity " if I were to wake up one day magically in a woman's body it wouldn't cause any special discomfort.

It might cause some discomfort when you accidentally pee down your leg because you haven't yet realized that you're built a bit different

(I would prefer that to be in an unfit or old man's body for example). I would then (after looking at the mirror) know that I was a woman. Nothing about "identity" in all of this. Just observing reality.

Pretty well said.

I figure it's not an identity any more than height is an identity. I don't have some innage fundamental part of my psyche that's related to my height. I don't "feel" like I'm in alignment with being 5'2". What I do have is a measuring tape, and the observation that I can't reach the cereal boxes on the top shelf of the grocery store.

Here's the fun part, at least for me. My mental image of myself - what my brain has constructed for how it thinks I fit into the world - is about 6 inches taller than I actually am. I'm frequently surprised that I can't reach things. But I don't think I feel any dysphoria about it, largely because I am aware that our brains lie to us and tell us wrong things on a regular basis.

This is a bit of an aside, but to me this seems to be kind of at the heart of the whole thing. Brains aren't reliable. They get things wrong all the time. We forget things, we misremember things, we insert things that never happened over what actually happened. We incorrectly perceive the world around us. We believe things that turn out to be false. We have ample evidence that our brains are unreliable witnesses, and often suck at perception.

If we accept that our brains can be wrong, then it seems pretty easy to accept that our bodies are simply what they are, and that there's no right or wrong about them. Our bodies can be independently verified by other people, and those other people are going to be in agreement about it.

Neither I nor anybody else in the world is made better by other people playing along with my brain's incorrect construct of me being 5'8" tall. On the other hand, I'm better off acknowledging that my self-perception is flawed, and adapting to the fact that my brain is a liar about my height.

 

[smartcooky]

Is that where you're going to plant your flag?

I don't think Sphensic was having a swipe at you... I think they were having a swipe at... err, someone else?

 

[smartcooky]

NAIA bans all transgender women from women's sports

https://www.reuters.com/sports/naia-bans-transgender-athletes-us-collegiate-sports-2024-04-08/

The National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics on Monday banned transgender women from competing in women's sports, taking a more hardline stance than other athletic bodies that allow trans athletes to compete based on testosterone levels.
The NAIA, representing mostly small colleges, is less influential than the larger National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) but its decision carries some political weight in the wider U.S. debate about transgender rights.
"Only NAIA student-athletes whose biological sex is female may participate in NAIA-sponsored female sports," the association said in its policy.​

The vote was 20-0