Should we repeal the 2nd Amendment?

[Norman Alexander]

Ohhh now you did it!!!

Oh no he didn't.

 

[arthwollipot]

I was objecting to Orphia's logic, which was: Mass murders are committed with assault weapons. Therefore, if we were to get rid of assault weapons, we would get rid of mass murders.

While that could turn out to be true, it doesn't logically follow, since just because mass murders are committed with assault weapons doesn't imply that they have to be. There are lots of other guns that mass murderers could use instead.

Which is why you have to control them too. It's not one thing or the other.

 

[arthwollipot]

Australia 20 years after gun reform: no mass shootings, declining firearm deaths

23 June 2016
Since major gun law reform 20 years ago, Australia has seen no mass shootings and an accelerating decline in intentional firearm deaths, the Journal of the American Medical Association reports today.

“The absence of mass shootings in Australia in the past two decades compares to 13 fatal mass shootings in the 18 years prior to these sweeping reforms,” says the University of Sydney’s Emeritus Professor Simon Chapman, who led the study with colleagues Philip Alpers and Macquarie University’s Professor Mike Jones.

The introduction of Australia’s unprecedented gun laws followed the mass firearm shooting in April of 1996, when a man used two semiautomatic rifles to kill 35 people and wound 19 others in Port Arthur, Tasmania.

The absence of mass shootings in Australia in the past two decades compares to 13 fatal mass shootings in the 18 years prior to these sweeping reforms.​

- Emeritus Professor Simon Chapman

Please go ahead and read the whole thing. It goes into quite a bit of detail.

 

[Stacyhs]

Since major gun law reform 20 years ago, Australia has seen no mass shootings and an accelerating decline in intentional firearm deaths, the Journal of the American Medical Association reports today.

Why, that is just so UN-AMERICAN!

Ah ha! Only an "accelerating decline in intentional firearm deaths" which means there are still gun deaths! Evidence gun control doesn't work! MAGA!

 

[acbytesla]

If the US had a National Referendum on repealing the 2nd Amendment, it would pass easily. But the structure for passing a Constitutional Amendment is so difficult that anything that doesn't have a support in rural states is impossible.

 

[Stacyhs]

If the US had a National Referendum on repealing the 2nd Amendment, it would pass easily. But the structure for passing a Constitutional Amendment is so difficult that anything that doesn't have a support in rural states is impossible.

Maybe not repeal it entirely but certainly make it easier to restrict the type of guns sold and harder to get.

 

[PitPat]

If the US had a National Referendum on repealing the 2nd Amendment, it would pass easily. But the structure for passing a Constitutional Amendment is so difficult that anything that doesn't have a support in rural states is impossible.

Not sure where you're getting your information. A national referendum on repealing the 2nd Amendment would not even get close to passing.

 

[Stacyhs]

Not sure where you're getting your information. A national referendum on repealing the 2nd Amendment would not even get close to passing.

Although the majority of Americans want stricter gun control laws, the idea of repealing the 2A completely is not popular.

 

[theprestige]

Maybe not repeal it entirely but certainly make it easier to restrict the type of guns sold and harder to get.

How do you imagine a referendum on one question could ever possibly decide another question that was never put to referendum?

It's exactly these kinds of bad faith rhetorical shenanigans that make reasonable people reasonably distrust and hate everything you propose to "solve" the "problem".

 

[Orphia Nay]

I was objecting to Orphia's logic, which was: Mass murders are committed with assault weapons. Therefore, if we were to get rid of assault weapons, we would get rid of mass murders.

While that could turn out to be true, it doesn't logically follow, since just because mass murders are committed with assault weapons doesn't imply that they have to be. There are lots of other guns that mass murderers could use instead.

Congratulations on bravely killing that strawman you so cleverly created.

Which is why you have to control them too. It's not one thing or the other.

Exactly. A more thoughtful reading of my posts would have understood that’s what I meant.

 

[arthwollipot]

Although the majority of Americans want stricter gun control laws, the idea of repealing the 2A completely is not popular.

Which is why, as I have outlined in the past, a strong education and information campaign is the first necessary step.

You won't be able to repeal the 2A until sufficient numbers of people want to repeal it.

You have to make guns uncool. Like smoking. Yes, lots of people still smoke, but it's not seen as the cool thing that movie stars do any more, and the rates of smoking are declining pretty strongly.

Guns are uncool. Only losers and movie villains use them.

 

[Hercules56]

...Guns are uncool. Only losers and movie villains use them.

...arrogant, obnoxious, ignorant attitudes like this is why the 2nd Am will never be repealed.

 

[Thermal]

Which is why, as I have outlined in the past, a strong education and information campaign is the first necessary step.

You won't be able to repeal the 2A until sufficient numbers of people want to repeal it.

You have to make guns uncool. Like smoking. Yes, lots of people still smoke, but it's not seen as the cool thing that movie stars do any more, and the rates of smoking are declining pretty strongly.

Guns are uncool. Only losers and movie villains use them.

I spent a lot of time hunting when I was younger, and more recently plinking at targets as a fun pastime with my nephew, while teaching him dilligent gun safety. We're losers for that? Seems unduly hostile and guaran-*******-teed to accomplish the opposite of your intent.

The States don't need 2A repealed. We need it interpreted for the 21st century. My US State (NJ) has a model that works for 21st century Americans. It needs to be dialed back in a few respects (children's water pistols should not be considered firearms), and made stricter in others (registering high powered rifles, all handguns, and magazine restrictions). Ideally, a ban on semis for all but rimfire rifles, but that's a tougher fight.

 

[dirtywick]

objectively, guns are pretty cool. they're deadly devices though, and unfortunately i feel an emphasis on gun safety and responsible gun ownership is something that fell to the wayside in gun culture

 

[theprestige]

I admit I'm somewhat fascinated by the idea that UK's armed police units are losers, or movie villains, or both.

Same with those Russian partisans fighting on the side of Ukraine.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I think in maybe 30 years we will be able to pass better gun control laws.

So, right after fusion power comes online.

 

[arthwollipot]

Okay, maybe those with a legitimate use for a gun aren't so uncool. If you're not one of them, you're a loser.

 

[Thermal]

And who decides what is legitimate? Is responsible plinking with a .22 legitimate? Is it legitimate to want a handgun to defend yourself, in a country with daily mass shootings? Is a small woman who doesn't want to be sexually assaulted again legitimate for gun ownership? As long as our repeat-firing genie is out of the bottle, it's hard to roundly condemn everyone.

I found out on another thread that you can buy a 12 ga break open double barreled shotgun pistol with six inch barrels through the mail with no paperwork at all. I mean, straight out of Mad Max and Army of Darkness! That's freaking cool!

https://americanguncraft.com/product/diablo-break-open-12-gauge-pistol-black-grips/

Not even considered a firearm in most of the United States (muzzleloader). You know how many crimes have been committed with these things? Zero. Because coolness is not the issue, like at all. Guns are tools to Americans. The only thing that brushes up against "coolness" is the tacticool military style weaponry, including most semi auto handguns. But the "coolness" is actually tied in with the identification of the self reliant patriot, which turns a contemptuous ear to charges of "coolness" or being a loser, much like telling a carpenter that he is a loser for owning hammers will meet with more scorn and ridicule than you seem to think it would carry.

I'm pretty sure the only approach is to appeal to reason, peppered with the somewhat emotional appeal of pointing at the graves of slaughtered schoolchildren. Dozens of small coffins should make even the most...ahem... diehard enthusiast stop and consider their priorities, and if maybe they could do with a few less military styled weapons to dial down the murdering.

 

[psionl0]

I was objecting to Orphia's logic, which was: Mass murders are committed with assault weapons. Therefore, if we were to get rid of assault weapons, we would get rid of mass murders.

You posted about banning assault weapons. That's not the same as getting rid of them.

 

[arthwollipot]

And who decides what is legitimate?

Who decides what is a legitimate place to park your car?

Lawmakers, obviously, when drawing up reasonable legislation.

Come on Thermal. That was so obvious a question I begin to wonder at your motives for asking it.