Cont: Luton Airport Car Park Fire part II

[zooterkin]

Also, why bother linking to the characteristic crimson flame of lithium (and its compounds) when the fire was clearly yellow/orange? It's baffling.

And that's leaving aside the issues of whether the colours are being rendered accurately. There's the whole chain from the recording device (physical characteristics of the sensor, the software that's 'improving' the image, auto white balance, etc.) to how it's displayed on the device you're viewing it on. (I was talking to someone the other day who suspects part of the split of opinion on the blue/black or gold/white dress that was a thing a few years back was down to whether you were looking at it on an Apple or non-Apple device.)

 

[catsmate]

Long ago, Mrs by the Hedge worked on a TV science news item about some innovation intended to reduce road wear caused by truck tyres. She told me the problem of wear was proportional to the fourth power of the axle load; a ten ton truck caused 10,000 times the wear of a one ton car. That so astounded me I had to go look it up to confirm it was really true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_power_law

I remember that! It was covered in a maths modelling module on vehicles, roads, traffic patterns and optimal speed. Many years ago, alas.

 

[catsmate]

Vixen seems stuck in the mindset that everyone she talks to here is just "some bloke on the Internet." Conversely, anyone who lives at the other side of a link, or who has a byline (no matter how inconsequential) is automatically some incontrovertible authority. Yes, many of the people participating in threads with Vixen are indeed more knowledgeable and qualified than Vixen's sources. No, we don't have YouTube channels (at least I don't). It's hard to explain to people who believe that's a credential why it isn't.

Never bothered, though I contribute to a few. No blog, no social media. No desire.
I do write for a few websites, magazines and (rarely these days) journals. And I've a couple of 'thank you' entries in books. Oh and deaths threat from two authors who didn't like my reviews of their books.

 

[Dabop]

No, the weaselly nonsense is yours. She said she needed a larger car because 'I need extra boot space for my wheelchair and hoist', nothing about it being heavier because it's electric.

The 2014 Range Rover Sport 3.0 TDV6 involved in the Luton Airport carpark fire had a curb weight of 2115 kg and a 'massive' boot space of 900 liters. The Tesla Model Y has a curb weight of 1984 kg (6% lighter) and boot space of 854 liters (5% less).

In comparison, my old 2011 Nissan Leaf has a curb weight of 1600 kg and boot space of 330 liters. The closest contemporary Nissan gas car was the Qashqai. With a 1.6l diesel engine it weighed 1518 kg and had a boot space of 410 liters.

So my Leaf only weighs ~5% more than the Qashqai. However the boot space is restricted by the battery size.

Battery technology has improved a lot since then. Later model Leafs had longer range and a larger boot with no weight increase. The 2017-2024 Leaf has a kerb weight of 1594 kg and boot space of 405 liters. Range is 70% higher, and the battery has much lower degradation than first generation Leafs.

'Everybody' has already been doing that with ICE cars.

American Cars Are Developing a Serious Weight ProblemThe only problem with EVs right now is people wanting stupidly large batteries to assuage their range anxiety. But as my Leaf example shows, batteries are getting better. In 6 years Nissan added 70% more range with a size decrease and no weight increase. They are also getting safer, cheaper, and lasting longer. BYD just announced that their latest batteries will have a 1 million mile warranty.

Lithium Phosphate batteries are much harder to set on fire than Li-ion. If that Range Rover had been a modern EV this disaster might not have happened! Rover have a fully electric Range Rover planned for next year.

Correct, the EU and Chinese made Model 3 Teslas use BYD LFP cells (as do BYD in all of their models, it has only been the last few years that BYD even sold their cells to anyone else- all their production was purely for internal use)
LFP has a long history of use, you could buy them for off grid housing back in 2008 here in Australia (and they were on sale overseas about 3/4 of a decade prior to them becoming available here...) and in that time, there hasn't been a single case of a LFP or LYP 'CELL' catching fire ever...

(indeed the few online videos showing them catching fire was only after extreme abuse - punching holes through it with a 6ft crowbar multiple times before it finally 'catches fire' counts as extreme in my books lol)

Many people confuse LFP/LYP with the 'lithium-ion' cells found in phones, computers etc- totally different chemistry and tech- they last about 500-800 charge cycles if that usually, while LiFePO4 LYP cells last in excess of 5000 charge cycles- just because they have 'lithium' in their name doesn't mean they are the same thing...

 

[Dabop]

And that's leaving aside the issues of whether the colours are being rendered accurately. There's the whole chain from the recording device (physical characteristics of the sensor, the software that's 'improving' the image, auto white balance, etc.) to how it's displayed on the device you're viewing it on. (I was talking to someone the other day who suspects part of the split of opinion on the blue/black or gold/white dress that was a thing a few years back was down to whether you were looking at it on an Apple or non-Apple device.)

Indeed, even here, I run multiple monitors, and the exact same picture, split over both screens, shows noticeable differences in colour between the two screens...

On the left is a shot taken on my phone, half displayed on the monitor on the left, half displayed on the monitor on the right
the far right shot was taken on the left hand monitor only- notice the difference in colour of the timber floor between the two monitors... despite both displays using identical colour/brightness etc levels and colour profiles, there are distinct differences in colour tone between the two monitors...

(the righthand monitor shows 'whites' far 'whiter' than the left, and is noticeably brighter/less 'greyish' than the left monitor...)
What colour things appear can vary dramatically from device to device...

 

[JayUtah]

And that's leaving aside the issues of whether the colours are being rendered accurately.

And why photographic interpretation is a specialized skill. Because we all look at photographs, many people think that extracting forensic evidence from a photo is not an especially difficult skill.

There's the whole chain from the recording device (physical characteristics of the sensor, the software that's 'improving' the image, auto white balance, etc.) to how it's displayed on the device you're viewing it on.

Many of which problems are obviated by the actually-employed techniques of statistical analysis of picture information aside from its visual representation. Eyeballs looking at properly calibrated monitors constitute a minority of the technique.

 

[JayUtah]

Those of familiar with CROSS do.

I never knew what the O was for.

 

[catsmate]

I never knew what the O was for.

Because humans can't pronounce CRFSS.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Indeed, even here, I run multiple monitors, and the exact same picture, split over both screens, shows noticeable differences in colour between the two screens...

On the left is a shot taken on my phone, half displayed on the monitor on the left, half displayed on the monitor on the right
the far right shot was taken on the left hand monitor only- notice the difference in colour of the timber floor between the two monitors... despite both displays using identical colour/brightness etc levels and colour profiles, there are distinct differences in colour tone between the two monitors...
[qimg]https://i.postimg.cc/cL4SfQGw/Screenshot-from-2024-04-03-01-35-21.png[/qimg]
(the righthand monitor shows 'whites' far 'whiter' than the left, and is noticeably brighter/less 'greyish' than the left monitor...)
What colour things appear can vary dramatically from device to device...

A company I worked for in the 90s specialised in digital publishing.
One of our products was colour calibration systems for monitors.
We sold and rented colour calibrated displays to companies like Getty Images and EMAP publishing. They cost about 3 or 4 times the price of a standard monitor and came with colour meters and scanning targets etc.
It helped that the Apple Mac had a built in colour calibration model they could work from.

 

[zooterkin]

A company I worked for in the 90s specialised in digital publishing.
One of our products was colour calibration systems for monitors.
We sold and rented colour calibrated displays to companies like Getty Images and EMAP publishing. They cost about 3 or 4 times the price of a standard monitor and came with colour meters and scanning targets etc.
It helped that the Apple Mac had a built in colour calibration model they could work from.

I have a colour calibration system, though I haven't used it since I started working mainly with two Mac screens; I probably should use it, but I rarely work on photos which require absolute colour accuracy (I don't do any product photography, for example). When I did use it on my motley collection of monitors, it did improve the consistency, but there were still variations between the colours displayed on the monitors (due to hardware limitations).

I didn't mention using one because I'm almost certain that Vixen hasn't used one on her monitors.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

A company I worked for in the 90s specialised in digital publishing.
One of our products was colour calibration systems for monitors.
We sold and rented colour calibrated displays to companies like Getty Images and EMAP publishing. They cost about 3 or 4 times the price of a standard monitor and came with colour meters and scanning targets etc.
It helped that the Apple Mac had a built in colour calibration model they could work from.

When I was doing photography seriously & for money I had a colour calibration device for my monitor. Obviously not as good as what you were doing but it helped.

 

[JayUtah]

Calibrated monitors are essential to many tasks, including photography, publishing, and photographic analysis from digital media. However, the answer to the question, "What color is that?" comes less from peering at a calibrated monitor and stroking one's chin, and more from an analysis of the actual picture data as digitally represented. Color reconstruction is informed by the image-capture equipment used, the algorithms used, lighting models, and statistical models. The best part of the science is done before the image ever arrives at a monitor.

 

[zooterkin]

Calibrated monitors are essential to many tasks, including photography, publishing, and photographic analysis from digital media. However, the answer to the question, "What color is that?" comes less from peering at a calibrated monitor and stroking one's chin, and more from an analysis of the actual picture data as digitally represented. Color reconstruction is informed by the image-capture equipment used, the algorithms used, lighting models, and statistical models. The best part of the science is done before the image ever arrives at a monitor.

Which is all true, but we know that Vixen is making her pronouncements after simply looking at an image on her screen.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Or looking at comments on social media by people claiming it definitely looks like a lithium fire and they ought to know because their cousin has a Tesla.

 

[catsmate]

Calibrated monitors are essential to many tasks, including photography, publishing, and photographic analysis from digital media. However, the answer to the question, "What color is that?" comes less from peering at a calibrated monitor and stroking one's chin, and more from an analysis of the actual picture data as digitally represented. Color reconstruction is informed by the image-capture equipment used, the algorithms used, lighting models, and statistical models. The best part of the science is done before the image ever arrives at a monitor.

Ah, that takes me back. Some 24.5 years to a certain client who insisted that their desktop background (NT desktop standardisation project) matched the rather small embedded logo in the centre. Naturally when asked neither management, IT services nor the coloured pencil office was actually able to give us the RGB-HSL value of that particular shade of blue.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Calibrated monitors are essential to many tasks, including photography, publishing, and photographic analysis from digital media. However, the answer to the question, "What color is that?" comes less from peering at a calibrated monitor and stroking one's chin, and more from an analysis of the actual picture data as digitally represented. Color reconstruction is informed by the image-capture equipment used, the algorithms used, lighting models, and statistical models. The best part of the science is done before the image ever arrives at a monitor.

It's a lo easier to calibrate flat screen monitors than it was to do a CRT. The calibration was run several times a day at Getty Images as the colour shifted as the monitors warmed up and were used. Daylight was excluded from the room they were in and daylight balanced lighting used, Part of the calibration process used actual physical colour targets to calibrate the calibration device. This was all tied in to printing ink calibration and so on right through the production chain.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Ah, that takes me back. Some 24.5 years to a certain client who insisted that their desktop background (NT desktop standardisation project) matched the rather small embedded logo in the centre. Naturally when asked neither management, IT services nor the coloured pencil office was actually able to give us the RGB-HSL value of that particular shade of blue.

I could have done it, We had the hardware and the software lol.

 

[catsmate]

I could have done it, We had the hardware and the software lol.

Oh yes but it was their responsibility.
In the end I opened the logo graphic in something and read off the values, then set them in Windows.

 

[novaphile]

Or looking at comments on social media by people claiming it definitely looks like a lithium fire and they ought to know because their cousin has saw a Tesla drive past once.

FTFY.

 

[Vixen]

Have you any idea of the type of construction used in the two buildings and what effect differences might have on their behaviour in a fire?

Rhetorical question.

AIUI BRE standards are followed.