Cont: Luton Airport Car Park Fire part II

[P.J. Denyer]

The Fire Service fall under the Met now?

Only in so far as they're both departments of the Illuminati!

 

[catsmate]

It seems to be an article of faith among conspiracy theorists that their critics have no way to determine the credibility of the conspiracy sources. That belief will not be true for all (or even many) critics. In fact, people drawn to the debunking of conspiracy theories generally arrive there because they actually know something about the subject from professional or similar experience. And it is not necessarily a categorical rejection, such as not accepting sources associated with well-known tabloids or self-publishing platforms. It is most often a substantive rejection because the critic really does have the knowledge necessary to test the correctness of the proponent's source.

A similar article of faith seems to be that critics have no way to determine that the conspiracy theorist herself doesn't know what she's talking about, leading to comical examples of bluster and gaslighting. Yes, we can tell when people are lying. Most conspiracy theorists are blissfully unaware just how dumb they sound, especially when they're trying to be self-important.



Indeed, what conspiracy theorists, armchair detectives, and other self-appointed "investigators" dread most is people coming along who actually do have expertise and actually do know what they're talking about. The armchair duckies can't compete when it comes to actual knowledge and understanding, so they have to make up new ways in which they're allegedly superior, such has having some sort of innate, natural understanding, or an unassailable personal background. Here, actual expertise and experience is being dismissed—with considerable and fervent hope—as "snobbery."

No, it's not a cultural thing. No, it's not an elitist thing. We simply require a demonstration that sources purported to be authoritative have some foundation of authority. In the real world, the celebration of mediocrity and ignorance is not really a thing.

Exactly. This has always annoyed me about the UFO nuts claiming that all modern technology came from alien sources. It simply doesn't square with human technological development.

 

[catsmate]

IIRC it was an online local newspaper and it was an opinion from an unnamed firefighter from Harpenden Brigade. As you know, employees are not allowed to speak to the press. Plus the mainstream press rely on official press reports.

So just your usual mess of ignorance and innuendo. Not a fact to be seen....

 

[catsmate]

Citation, please.

As for your cousin, captain of a firehouse in northwest Illinois, is he aware that it is not just about pumping loads of water but that water would be contaminated by highly toxic chemicals?

The other 'nightmare' is the toxic fumes.
Breathing in the fumes of a burning lithium-ion fire can damage your lungs within minutes.Why else did the fire brigade stand well away from the building at Luton?
But then you knew all that.

1. This is idiocy. Breathing in any smoke will cause serious lung damage.
2. Because they knew, being actual professionals, it was likely to collapse.

 

[catsmate]

This is nothing to do with the Philosophy of Conspiracy Theories, 'conspiracy theory' being a phrase that has become near meaningless as a casual insult to someone one disagrees with.


It is a straightforward news item.

More bollocks. You're attempting to paper over your abject lack of evidence to support your claims with nonsensical drivel.

 

[catsmate]

Here come the cheap ad hominems.

You might want to learn what argumentum ad hominem actually means.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

You might want to learn what argumentum ad hominem actually means.

Much like quoting Shakespeare you just have to declare yourself "close enough".

 

[autumn1971]

Much like quoting Shakespeare you just have to declare yourself "close enough".

Only a few ‘s away

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Or indeed when you quote Lewis Carroll.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

"**** that ****. It's close enough ************" - Pope John Paul II

 

[Vixen]

FYI: Your opinions don't upset me. They make me laugh.


In this thread, along with its predecessor, a great many people have disagreed with your opinions, and almost all of them have stated their reasons for disagreeing.

I guess you just forgot all that.

Is this an appeal to the crowd?

 

[Vixen]

Do you have any evidence that information that is embargoed "was in the hands of the police and the Fire Brigade at an early stage"? What is this "information"? When did they get it? Specific evidence, please.

Common knowledge.

 

[Vixen]

The first page is the table of contents. There doesn't appear to be a section with a heading indicating that it specifically concerns "who is authorized to speak to the press". Looking at the actual document, it does say that:


The statement that you were supposed to be supporting was that "employees are not allowed to speak to the press"; this doesn't seem to do it.

Can you quote the passage that forbids employees to speak to the press, please?

And it was supposed to be relevant to the firefighters concerned. Are you claiming that the firefighter was in fact a member of the Metropolitan Police working undercover?

Again common knowledge. I am pretty sure you know perfectly well the principles of fealty and the Official Secrets Act, even if not spelt out in your employment contract. They apply broadly to all employees. For the benefit of those outside of the UK, when you join the Civil Service or public service such as NHS, police, firefighter, etc., you invariably sign the Official Secrets Act to remind you of your duty of confidentiality linked to your job.

But Mojo knows this.

 

[Vixen]

You've seen the fire service statement. This is just a sad evasion on your part.



Yes, I'm quite sure that my cousin, who was a firefighter his entire career, knows far more about firefighting that you will ever know. I'm also quite sure that this won't stop you from pretending to be an expert on this, or any other subject you decide to lecture people about after watching a few YouTube videos and reading some comments by conspiracy theorists equally committed to presenting themselves as erudite investigators.

Toxic fumes are not unique to EVs. Firefighters didn't introduce masks and air tanks in response to EV fires. The fumes from burning diesel, gasoline, plastics, tires, insulation etcetera are no less "nightmarish" than those from an EV fire.

I never claimed to be an expert in firefighting. The false equivalence you cite between a diesel fire and a lithium battery one is predicated on the fact that firefighters can move in and put out an ordinary car fire within ten minutes. Don't try to pretend the two types of fire are identical.

The Luton Airport car park fire was in its ignition stage, so hardly something that could not be tackled by a regular team of firefighters arriving promptly with the usual equipment.

Luckily, in this case, we have an authorized release of a CCTV clip of the presumed Vehicle Zero, which from its outline looks to be a Range Rover or Land Rover of some sort. From the nature of where the fire is located which appears to have ignited as the guy was driving in; as of that point, two fire extinguishers had unsuccessfully failed to extinguish it, and we can see with our own two eyes whence the characteristic flames are shooting out, giving off a white or grey cloud of smoke. The location is exactly where a lithium battery would be. When people with long experience in that industry state that in their opinion this appears to be a lithium-ion fire, together with the Fire Brigade withholding the information as to the model, make and year of the vehicle involved claiming only that it was not an EV but 'believed to be a diesel-fuelled vehicle', then it does seem to point to an unwillingness to let the public know what the public is normally entitled to know. This information appears in the press as a matter of course. Journalist Jasper Jolly, who wrote a four-part series for the GUARDIAN about EV vehicles, basically extolling their virtues, contacted the Fire Brigade to verify his information and he was told, and he quotes that the vehicle at Luton Airport car park fire was 'not a fully electric or plug-in hybrid'. As a respectable journalist, I believe Jolly has insisted and received specific details. As you can see it has not ruled out a mild hybrid. We also know - since you are keen on statistics as to which vehicles are most likely to catch fire - that such vehicles are the leading cause of 'accidental ignition'. It really has nothing at all to do with conspiracy theory, except that EVangelists want it to be because they think it is an attack on EV cars and the net zero aims.

The other key factor, I'm afraid, is politics. Someone high up has embargoed releasing the make and model of the vehicle involved, and surprise surprise, we discover that JLR owners, Tata, have been given a huge government grant (= grants do not have to be paid back) to build a massive lithium battery plant int he UK and with close links to the Prime Minister's wife. Call me cynical if you like but there has been an awful lot of pocket lining by UK politicians given half a chance (cf PPE procurement, planning permissions, expense claims, etcetera, etcetera).

 

[Vixen]

The Fire Service fall under the Met now?

Many happy returns. As you know, when there is an incident such as this, the police collaborate with the fire service. I do know that the London Fire Brigade came along to help fight the fire. I don't know whether this is the police force tackling it (but given the sheer scale of damage and the possibility of a crime [many such fires are arson]) then I wouldn't be surprised. The point is virtually all public facing jobs such as police and firefighters have a specific chain of command as to who can give statements to the press.

But then you knew that.

 

[Vixen]

So just your usual mess of ignorance and innuendo. Not a fact to be seen....

 

[Vixen]

1. This is idiocy. Breathing in any smoke will cause serious lung damage.
2. Because they knew, being actual professionals, it was likely to collapse.

So it seems you are the one who is ignorant about lithium battery fires.

Fancy claiming they progress and give off the same fumes as any other fire!

OMG I am laughing with tears in my eyes ATM. Literally gasping for breath.

 

[Mojo]

Do you have any evidence that information that is embargoed "was in the hands of the police and the Fire Brigade at an early stage"? What is this "information"? When did they get it? Specific evidence, please.

Common knowledge.

What's the point of having an embargo on information that's common knowledge?

 

[Mojo]

Again common knowledge. I am pretty sure you know perfectly well the principles of fealty and the Official Secrets Act, even if not spelt out in your employment contract. They apply broadly to all employees. For the benefit of those outside of the UK, when you join the Civil Service or public service such as NHS, police, firefighter, etc., you invariably sign the Official Secrets Act to remind you of your duty of confidentiality linked to your job.

But Mojo knows this.

You said it was in the document you linked to. Further, you said that it was in "the section on who is authorized to speak to the press and when and on what occasion", but now it appears that you are unable to quote, or even identify, this section. Were you lying again?

 

[Mojo]

So it seems you are the one who is ignorant about lithium battery fires.

Fancy claiming they progress and give off the same fumes as any other fire!

OMG I am laughing with tears in my eyes ATM. Literally gasping for breath.

Nobody has claimed this. It looks as if you are lying again.