Cont: Luton Airport Car Park Fire part II

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Vixen said:
. So the issue with the HVAC is a lot more than just 'switch it off', it means it has to be literally disabled in an extraordinary measure, user manual required as to how to do this.
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You made that up.
 
By odd coincidence my cousin is a design engineer at the very same company who build these buses, and I could just ask him how the driver turns the HVAC on and off. But I can't be bothered because it's so obviously stupid I couldn't explain why I was asking without sounding like a nut case.

It's just a game of seeing how much effort Vixen can provoke us into putting in to prove her obviously made-up nonsense is wrong.
 
junkshop said:
Your link:

So I can't comment on this question, except to note the url contains 'enviro500', so even if I could access it, I don't see it's relevancy to this conversation about enviro 400 buses.




I wouldn't know, I'm not a bus driver. I ask again, do you have a source to support your claim that the driver "should also pull out various bits of the HVAC wiring"?



Utterly irrelevant twaddle, try to retain focus.



Citation needed.

I asked if you had a source for your claims in post #1184. You haven't answered that question. Please answer that question.
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I wish people would learn to recognise PR piffle when they see it. Alexander Dennis DYB is the SUPPLIER of these faulty buses. When there is an issue with product safety or recall, a corporation puts into place a crisis management team, whose function is to 'reassure the public' and to play down the issue. It is called 'Reputation Damage Limitation' ( reputation damage being a key cause of companies going bust). The bus companies in the interest of public safety, having done a risk assessment have pulled these buses out of service. The claim by Alexander Dennis BYD that it is nothing to worry about, as long as the bus driver utilizes a 'temporary solution' of disabling the HVAC when leaving the bus unattended. That is, in addition to switching off the engine and the dashboard electronics and manual operations. That you have fallen hook, line and sinker for the claim that this means the lithium-ion batteries are safe from catching fire if the HVAC system does 'accidentally ignite' shows just how effective this type of damage limitation PR is. 'It's only the HVAC electronics that catch fire, honest. Nothing to see here. Quite safe. Move along please.' ~ Press release from the bus suppliers for immediate release.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
By odd coincidence my cousin is a design engineer at the very same company who build these buses, and I could just ask him how the driver turns the HVAC on and off. But I can't be bothered because it's so obviously stupid I couldn't explain why I was asking without sounding like a nut case.

It's just a game of seeing how much effort Vixen can provoke us into putting in to prove her obviously made-up nonsense is wrong.
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Ask him about it. Ask what extra steps need to be taken on these faulty vehicles to ensure safety as a 'temporary solution'.
 
Vixen said:
I wish people would learn to recognise PR piffle when they see it. Alexander Dennis DYB is the SUPPLIER of these faulty buses. When there is an issue with product safety or recall, a corporation puts into place a crisis management team, whose function is to 'reassure the public' and to play down the issue. It is called 'Reputation Damage Limitation' ( reputation damage being a key cause of companies going bust). The bus companies in the interest of public safety, having done a risk assessment have pulled these buses out of service. The claim by Alexander Dennis BYD that it is nothing to worry about, as long as the bus driver utilizes a 'temporary solution' of disabling the HVAC when leaving the bus unattended. That is, in addition to switching off the engine and the dashboard electronics and manual operations. That you have fallen hook, line and sinker for the claim that this means the lithium-ion batteries are safe from catching fire if the HVAC system does 'accidentally ignite' shows just how effective this type of damage limitation PR is. 'It's only the HVAC electronics that catch fire, honest. Nothing to see here. Quite safe. Move along please.' ~ Press release from the bus suppliers for immediate release.
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That doesn't answer my question. Please try to focus.

I asked if you had a source for the highlighted:


Vixen said:
...The issue with the buses was the integrated electrical system, which meant that owing to a fault in the HVAC, there was an observable danger that one of these buses could catch fire unattended. A temporary solution has been suggested that the bus driver, after switching off the ignition, now should also pull out various bits of the HVAC wiring to mitigate against the risk of the bus going up in flames...
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So I ask again - do you?
 
junkshop said:
That doesn't answer my question. Please try to focus.

I asked if you had a source for the highlighted:





So I ask again - do you?
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The source was the original article in which an Alexander Dennis BYD spokesman played the whole issue down by saying a 'temporary solution' to the issue of the HVAC systems being faulty and prone to catch fire when the bus was unattended, was to disable the HVAC system in addition and over and above the normal procedures for switching the bus engine and operations off. It is clear it refers to bus drivers and maintenance staff who have gone home for the day after working their shift. IOW it is not something that is routine. This is a common sense interpretation by any reasonable person.
 
Vixen said:
The source was the original article in which an Alexander Dennis BYD spokesman played the whole issue down by saying a 'temporary solution' to the issue of the HVAC systems being faulty and prone to catch fire when the bus was unattended, was to disable the HVAC system in addition and over and above the normal procedures for switching the bus engine and operations off.
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You have yet to link to an article that actually says that. Now would be a good time to do so.
It is clear it refers to bus drivers and maintenance staff who have gone home for the day after working their shift. IOW it is not something that is routine. This is a common sense interpretation by any reasonable person.
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You appear to be hallucinating again.
 
Vixen said:
The source was the original article in which an Alexander Dennis BYD spokesman played the whole issue down by saying a 'temporary solution' to the issue of the HVAC systems being faulty and prone to catch fire when the bus was unattended, was to disable the HVAC system in addition and over and above the normal procedures for switching the bus engine and operations off. It is clear it refers to bus drivers and maintenance staff who have gone home for the day after working their shift. IOW it is not something that is routine. This is a common sense interpretation by any reasonable person.
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As Zooterkin wrote above, you've not provided a link to any such article. If you have a source, please let us see it.

ETA: The only article you have linked to about this is the second-hand MailOnline article. It does not support your claims.
 
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Vixen said:
snip...
That you have fallen hook, line and sinker for the claim that this means the lithium-ion batteries are safe from catching fire if the HVAC system does 'accidentally ignite' shows just how effective this type of damage limitation PR is. 'It's only the HVAC electronics that catch fire, honest. Nothing to see here. Quite safe. Move along please.' ~ Press release from the bus suppliers for immediate release.
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Feel free to quote anyone here who has claimed the highlighted.

Feel free to quote anything in any article which claims the highlighted.

Otherwise withdraw the claim.
 
Vixen said:
The source was the original article in which an Alexander Dennis BYD spokesman played the whole issue down by saying a 'temporary solution' to the issue of the HVAC systems being faulty and prone to catch fire when the bus was unattended, was to disable the HVAC system in addition and over and above the normal procedures for switching the bus engine and operations off.
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"Over and above the normal" is just a fantastical lie. The temporary solution is to switch the HVAC system off. (You recognise the word "switch" I presume.)

Switch off. That's what the maker says, that's what the DVSA says, that's what all the news articles I've seen say too. None of them says "disable". They all say "switch off".

Your entirely made up designation of "engine and operations" has no defined meaning as it's your own invention. An EV has no engine anyway, it has a motor. While the bus is stopped they may well want to leave other systems powered, such as internal lights and doors, and maybe also the heating/cooling and ventilation so the bus is ready for its next run. All the operators have to do for the meantime is not leave the heater running while the bus is standing idle and unattended. That's it.
 
Vixen said:
It is clear it refers to bus drivers and maintenance staff who have gone home for the day after working their shift. IOW it is not something that is routine. This is a common sense interpretation by any reasonable person.
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What a capacity you have for just wantonly making up crap. Armchair detectives are worse than useless.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
"Over and above the normal" is just a fantastical lie. The temporary solution is to switch the HVAC system off. (You recognise the word "switch" I presume.)

Switch off. That's what the maker says, that's what the DVSA says, that's what all the news articles I've seen say too. None of them says "disable". They all say "switch off".

Your entirely made up designation of "engine and operations" has no defined meaning as it's your own invention. An EV has no engine anyway, it has a motor. While the bus is stopped they may well want to leave other systems powered, such as internal lights and doors, and maybe also the heating/cooling and ventilation so the bus is ready for its next run. All the operators have to do for the meantime is not leave the heater running while the bus is standing idle and unattended. That's it.
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What Glynn Barton, chief operating officer, of Alexander Dennis BYD (the supplier of these buses) says is the following:

“The investigation is still ongoing and the root cause has not yet been identified. As the safety of our customers’ team members, bus drivers and passengers is of the utmost importance to us, a safety bulletin has been issued to all affected operators with temporary precautionary measures to ensure the highest levels of safety are met.”
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https://www.aberdeenlive.news/news/almost-1800-buses-recalled-over-9143064


I dare say it was followed up with 'We take all matters extremely seriously'.

Their 'temproary solution' is not that of bus companies around the country as the DVSA (Driving Standards) advised a recall and that is what has been done.

If you want to believe it is just a case of bus driver switching off the HVAC, that is your prerogative. Tfl did not agree with you, nor the other bus service providers as they have been taken out of service.

From the same article:

The Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) issued a formal warning about 1,758 Alexander Dennis Enviro200 and Enviro400 single and double-decker buses, saying there was a fire risk in the heating, ventilation and air conditioning system.
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Vixen said:
I wish people would learn to recognise PR piffle when they see it. Alexander Dennis DYB is the SUPPLIER of these faulty buses. When there is an issue with product safety or recall, a corporation puts into place a crisis management team, whose function is to 'reassure the public' and to play down the issue. It is called 'Reputation Damage Limitation' ( reputation damage being a key cause of companies going bust).
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You mean like Meyer Werft did after the Estonia sank?
 
Vixen said:
...the DVSA (Driving Standards) advised a recall and that is what has been done...
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You are wrong. Well, to be charitable, let's say mistaken. A recall doesn't necessarily mean the vehicle is returned to the manufacturer:

route-one.net said:
...DVSA notes that if a recall relates to a serious matter, owners will be advised not to drive vehicles in question. That is not the case for the BYD ADL Enviro200EV and Enviro400EV...
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I can find no reference in any reporting of this story to these buses being withdrawn from service, except for the fossil fuel shill Howard Cox claiming that:

MailOnline said:
...tax payers now have to fund these expensive buses being taken off the road"...
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But as noted by Route One Magazine:

route-one.net said:
...Neither Alexander Dennis nor DVSA’s recall advisory service says that affected buses should be removed from service, leading to a source close to the matter to observe that it has been twisted by the parts of the mainstream media to “fit their narrative.”...
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By the way, are you able to answer my question yet?
 
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I have found a news story from January saying EV buses on one London bus route, route 200, had been temporarily withdrawn as a precaution while investigating a fire in Wimbledon, but that model was an "Optare Metrodecker", not an Alexander Dennis model at all, so it seems to be an entirely separate story.
https://www.sustainable-bus.com/news/go-ahead-fire-bus-investigation-london/

The affected Alexander Dennis models are subject to a recall notice but, as junkshop says, that does not mean the vehicles can't continue to be used (unless the DVSA thinks the recall issue is a sufficiently serious risk, which they don't in this case). As is commonplace with vehicle recalls, this issue will be fixed by the manufacturer in due course and in the meantime operators are advised to switch off the heater when the bus is unattended.
 
Vixen said:
If you want to believe it is just a case of bus driver switching off the HVAC, that is your prerogative. Tfl did not agree with you, nor the other bus service providers as they have been taken out of service.
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Got a reference for that claim? (One that doesn't relate to an entirely different make of bus?)
 
Vixen said:
For crying out loud. You claim to work for Tfl and yet you didn't know that it withdrew 600 of its electric buses. The issue with the buses was the integrated electrical system, which meant that owing to a fault in the HVAC, there was an observable danger that one of these buses could catch fire unattended. A temporary solution has been suggested that the bus driver, after switching off the ignition, now should also pull out various bits of the HVAC wiring to mitigate against the risk of the bus going up in flames (see Wimbledon bus, cited earlier by a poster). Your pretending this is not at all dangerous is disingenuous to say the least.

Each of these buses costs £400,000 so that is an expensive mistake.

Notandum: as an aside, I was in London recently and these buses are so cheaply made I could barely get my legs in and had to perform advanced yoga just to sit down.
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You're lying again. :rolleyes:

Vixen said:
Logical fallacy #6 the non sequitur.
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You should stop using the term until you know what it actually means.
 
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