Utah Official Falsely Claims Student is Transgender

[theprestige]

Straw man. Not all transgender issues are simply a matter of self-identification. Not all issues that one might say are "everyone's business" place equal weight on every person's opinion.

I am rejecting the claim that an athlete's sex is nobody else's business.

And I am hard pressed to think of a transgender issue in public policy that isn't about self-identification. Certainly the issue of transcending sex segregation in sports by fiat self-ID isn't an issue of medical diagnosis or a prescription of social transition as medical treatment.

Utah has laws and enforcement mechanisms in place to address this. Natalie Cline did not respect that, and instead decided to take matters into her own hands under color of her office.

Agreed.

Weasel words.

Not intended as such.

Do you think it is proper for an elected member of the school board to publicly question an athlete's gender based solely on her uninformed judgment, and in defiance of the state's prior determination of eligibility?

No.

This issue is already causing incidents of violence in my state.

Yes, and it's going to get worse before it gets better. Fiat self-ID is a terrible basis for public policy. It's bad for women. It's bad for homosexuals. It's bad for people who actually suffer from gender dysphoria and need medical diagnosis and treatment. The violence is abhorrent, but pretending fiat self-ID is okay isn't the solution.

 

[JayUtah]

Certainly the issue of transcending sex segregation in sports by fiat self-ID isn't an issue of medical diagnosis or a prescription of social transition as medical treatment.

Utah's laws governing transgender participation in sports cover the issues of self-identification, social transition, and medical transition. I have some issues with those laws, but I see in them an attempt to discuss gender in a more nuanced way. Not all transgender students have been approved to participate as they desire; to my knowledge, four students have been denied.

Agreed.

I'm pleased that while we may disagree on some issues, we seem to agree that Ms Cline's behavior was inappropriate. For me, that's the important take-away in this thread.

Fiat self-ID is a terrible basis for public policy. It's bad for women. It's bad for homosexuals. It's bad for people who actually suffer from gender dysphoria and need medical diagnosis and treatment. The violence is abhorrent, but pretending fiat self-ID is okay isn't the solution.

I feel I could debate these points, but the point I want to make is that while Ms Cline's actions are clearly inappropriate, she was elected by a majority of her district, many of whom are cheering her on even as we speak. Is that a better solution?

 

[The Don]

So basically we're in a world where the people who mind their own business are the sinners and the people who want to pull down their pants and check their vaginas are the pure and holy.

Religious zealots have ever been thus.

 

[bruto]

No.


Transcending sex segregation through fiat self-ID is a public policy issue that is everyone's business. As this becomes more commonplace, questions about a particular athlete's sex and thus standing to compete as a female are going to become more common as well, and more important. But this budding sociological fiasco is in its early days yet, and circumspection would have served this person better than ill-informed speculation.

But ill informed speculation is the norm here. It's a fancy way of saying idiocy would not occur if only people weren't idiots.

 

[Shalamar]

it's simple misogyny. If someone doesn't look like a woman, act like a woman, dress like a woman, they must actually be male. In the transphobic thread, a 'transvestigator' who claimed to be able to ID male vs. female said, in a case like this one 'mistakes will be made'.

Now it's 'Self ID is the problem'? Well, this girl was born with a vagina, and apparently 'self ID's' as a woman, and that isn't good enough. Should all women be investigated for having the correct lady bits? Or is it just the women who don't fit the mold of what you think a female looks like?

 

[theprestige]

Utah's laws governing transgender participation in sports cover the issues of self-identification, social transition, and medical transition. I have some issues with those laws, but I see in them an attempt to discuss gender in a more nuanced way. Not all transgender students have been approved to participate as they desire; to my knowledge, four students have been denied.

These questions have been asked and answered, belabored many times over, in The Other Thread. Here I'll summarize my current position thus: A nuanced approach in public policy is misguided. There is no nuance to biological sex in humans. The basis for sex segregation in some areas of our society is well-established and does not admit nuance. Trying to add nuance to these things is harmful to society. Meanwhile gender, decoupled from sex, is so "nuanced" as to be practically meaningless. The important point in public policy, prohibition of discrimination on the basis of gender expression (whatever that means), is already well-addressed, and also requires very little nuance. Trying to add more nuance to gender expression in public policy is also harmful to society. Utahn laws in this area are trying to thread a needle that should not be threaded, and are causing harm to society in the attempt.

I'm pleased that while we may disagree on some issues, we seem to agree that Ms Cline's behavior was inappropriate. For me, that's the important take-away in this thread.

I too, am pleased that we agree that Ms Cline's behavior was inappropriate. However, for me this is a banal observation and not the only important takeaway.

I feel I could debate these points, but the point I want to make is that while Ms Cline's actions are clearly inappropriate, she was elected by a majority of her district, many of whom are cheering her on even as we speak. Is that a better solution?

Here I think there is good reason for nuance. Bad policy and poisonous discourse lead to civil unrest. Civil unrest is not often a healthy expression of civil society. Now these people are upset and adding their own poisonous discourse to a public conversation that has already been made extremely toxic by trans rights activists. They are lashing out in bad ways that make the situation worse. But it's already a bad situation, and turning a blind eye on the antecedents to this lashing-out, is not going to make it better.

 

[theprestige]

it's simple misogyny. If someone doesn't look like a woman, act like a woman, dress like a woman, they must actually be male. In the transphobic thread, a 'transvestigator' who claimed to be able to ID male vs. female said, in a case like this one 'mistakes will be made'.

Now it's 'Self ID is the problem'? Well, this girl was born with a vagina, and apparently 'self ID's' as a woman, and that isn't good enough. Should all women be investigated for having the correct lady bits? Or is it just the women who don't fit the mold of what you think a female looks like?

It is a fundamental principle of the entitlement to identify as female, by self-declaration rather than diagnosis or independent observation, that such identification cannot be questioned or challenged in any way. The entitlement, as formulated, effectively silences anyone who thinks this is unhealthy and unfair. Anyone who questions the orthodoxy is dismissed as a transphobe and told to shut up. As we see here, you have mastered the orthodox debate strategy. Is it any wonder that some people who dissent from this orthodoxy are now lashing out as the results percolate through society? Take away the principle of fiat self-ID, and the problem of masculine women in sports largely goes away. Uphold that principle, and of course some people are going to start asking ugly questions, because the door to those questions has been opened wide.

Yes, this lady and her supporters are behaving badly. But this is the can of worms that lies open before us, and fiat self-ID is the can opener.

 

[JayUtah]

Yes, this lady and her supporters are behaving badly. But this is the can of worms that lies open before us, and fiat self-ID is the can opener.

Do you believe that Ms Cline and her supporters would not behave the way they do but for the actions of the minorities they oppose?

 

[Samson]

'Transvestigators' have been harassing many women they claim must be transgender women for a few years now. Athletes are one of the more popular categories to attack. A rugby player was accused recently too, and she's also cis. Michelle Obama, Anne Hathaway, Henry Cavil, Daniel Radcliffe's girlfriend Erin Darke who was pregnant at the time, the list goes on and on.

People so accused are often then relentlessly harassed. The parents here were right to be concerned about suicide because that's happened several times.

Of note, Utah's legislature overcame a governor's veto for a law barring transgender student athletes, which was then put on hold by a judge's ruling.

EDIT: Concerns over transgender athletes have lead to testosterone limits in women's sports, barring some cisgender women from sports, you know, just to be sure?

It is true that a blanket ban worldwide on males contesting female sport would eliminate the type of error this woman made.
Most of us were raised at a time this error would be impossible.

 

[TomB]

It is a fundamental principle of the entitlement to identify as female, by self-declaration rather than diagnosis or independent observation, that such identification cannot be questioned or challenged in any way. The entitlement, as formulated, effectively silences anyone who thinks this is unhealthy and unfair. Anyone who questions the orthodoxy is dismissed as a transphobe and told to shut up. As we see here, you have mastered the orthodox debate strategy. Is it any wonder that some people who dissent from this orthodoxy are now lashing out as the results percolate through society? Take away the principle of fiat self-ID, and the problem of masculine women in sports largely goes away. Uphold that principle, and of course some people are going to start asking ugly questions, because the door to those questions has been opened wide.

Yes, this lady and her supporters are behaving badly. But this is the can of worms that lies open before us, and fiat self-ID is the can opener.

Eligibility for participation in a sports league is a legitimate concern, if one has standing. I have no objection to someone with standing, by which I mean athletes, coaches, and (in the case where the athletes are minors) parents questioning an athlete's eligibility on any grounds, not just sex. However, there is (or should be) a process for this which should be non-public. Doing so publicly should have consequences, particularly in the case of youth sports, regardless of whether the complaint has merit.

For example, parents who make public accusations about eligibility could have their child declared ineligible as a result of their actions. A coach doing so could forfeit a game or season for his team.

When my daughter participated on school sports, two documents were required: A birth certificate, and a doctor's certificate of physical fitness to participate.
A birth certificate confirms the non-academic or residency based eligibility criteria: Age and sex. Eligibility was determined by documentation not by fiat self-id. I doubt that has changed.

While I know that changing the birth certificate is a thing, I doubt that it happens much in the case of minors, though in Illinois a parent can sign the request. (Maybe that particular action should require the person to be over 18?)

My point is that the information to verify eligibility is currently available without a physical exam or even making the child aware that their sex (or age) is being challenged.

This is a completely different issue than the debate over trans inclusion policies in sports or even discussing the cases of particular athletes whose trans status is public.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

There is no nuance to biological sex in humans.

How to say you've not learned anything about genetics beyond the "lies-to-children" of undergraduate education. From the genes that provide the basis of physiological sex (X and Y, which present in multiples and absences and mangled forms) to the signals which guide fetal development (mostly from embryo, partly from mother) all the way to "penis at 12" and androgen insensitivity. Sex is a spectrum from very male to very female and we all form to be somewhere on that spectrum.

 

[TomB]

It is true that a blanket ban worldwide on males contesting female sport would eliminate the type of error this woman made.

This was not simply an "error." This was an uninvolved adult in a position of authority publicly humiliating a minor.

Even if she had been correct that the girl was born male, it would not be acceptable or excusable.

Most of us were raised at a time this error would be impossible.

********.

People have been speculating about masculine appearing female athletes for a very long time. Certainly when I was in school in the 80s.

 

[TomB]

How to say you've not learned anything about genetics beyond the "lies-to-children" of undergraduate education. From the genes that provide the basis of physiological sex (X and Y, which present in multiples and absences and mangled forms) to the signals which guide fetal development (mostly from embryo, partly from mother) all the way to "penis at 12" and androgen insensitivity. Sex is a spectrum from very male to very female and we all form to be somewhere on that spectrum.

As a biologist, my position is that sex is not a spectrum, but that some sexually linked traits are. Also, intersex conditions exist, but do not represent a "spectrum."

 

[bruto]

This was not simply an "error." This was an uninvolved adult in a position of authority publicly humiliating a minor.

Even if she had been correct that the girl was born male, it would not be acceptable or excusable.


********.

People have been speculating about masculine appearing female athletes for a very long time. Certainly when I was in school in the 80s.

This and then some. The presumed harm of having the occasional trans athlete in school sports is, I think, trivial compared to the harm of people like that making our society hostile, hateful, stupid, narrow minded and just plain dirty. To say it's just a "mistake" is to say that the hatred, threats and disruption of a student's life would be perfectly acceptable if that student had been trans, or otherwise sexually ambiguous. As if the mistake was simply that they humiliated the wrong person this time. I say ********. It should never be all right.

 

[crazycat]

EDIT: Concerns over transgender athletes have lead to testosterone limits in women's sports, barring some cisgender women from sports, you know, just to be sure?

Has this changed? There have been testosterone limits in women's sports for many years, at least in the ones requiring strength. Because some cis women tried to cheat by unnaturally bulking up. Cheating in sports isn't just a guy thing.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

As a biologist, my position is that sex is not a spectrum, but that some sexually linked traits are. Also, intersex conditions exist, but do not represent a "spectrum."

The genotype might not be, as it's going to be based on X and Y, but what of the phenotype expressed from those genes? Even in the basic biology courses of undergrad we were told that we used to genotype ourselves, but because multiple sex chromosomes were associated with lower intelligence and were popping up more often than previously expected, for privacy reasons we no longer did. For that matter, which is more important? Genes, which no one usually sees, or how the body expressed those genes for all eyes to see?

 

[Samson]

This and then some. The presumed harm of having the occasional trans athlete in school sports is, I think, trivial compared to the harm of people like that making our society hostile, hateful, stupid, narrow minded and just plain dirty. To say it's just a "mistake" is to say that the hatred, threats and disruption of a student's life would be perfectly acceptable if that student had been trans, or otherwise sexually ambiguous. As if the mistake was simply that they humiliated the wrong person this time. I say ********. It should never be all right.

The path to corporate success for women is often sport. The chilling effect on female participation extends well beyond the infrequent incidence, to the point women stop competing.
This official is part of this wider issue. It is certain that sport will revert to sex based participation. If that statement proves to be false, this is a further defeat for the rights of the weak sex.
It is appalling that men would ever argue for their sex to compete against women.

 

[bruto]

It is a fundamental principle of the entitlement to identify as female, by self-declaration rather than diagnosis or independent observation, that such identification cannot be questioned or challenged in any way. The entitlement, as formulated, effectively silences anyone who thinks this is unhealthy and unfair. Anyone who questions the orthodoxy is dismissed as a transphobe and told to shut up. As we see here, you have mastered the orthodox debate strategy. Is it any wonder that some people who dissent from this orthodoxy are now lashing out as the results percolate through society? Take away the principle of fiat self-ID, and the problem of masculine women in sports largely goes away. Uphold that principle, and of course some people are going to start asking ugly questions, because the door to those questions has been opened wide.

Yes, this lady and her supporters are behaving badly. But this is the can of worms that lies open before us, and fiat self-ID is the can opener.

One hears about the effect of this or that percolating through society, and well the might, but are you aware of bad effects that actually are percolating through society? Are there such effects that are worse for society than the efforts of those like Cline?

You speak of "fiat" gender identification. But is there evidence that the girl in question was not, at some point in her life, identified as female by someone other than herself? The incident in question involves a presumption, not only that anyone might present as trans, but that anyone can publicly challenge anyone on the grounds of sexual stereotypes, without knowledge, wisdom, authority or cause. Does your opposition mean that you, for example, should be allowed to approach a high school girl and demand that she prove to your satisfaction that she was born with a vagina? If not, why not? How would that differ from the situation this thread is about?

I don't think we're talking here just about a mistake. It's a fundamental problem on who is entitled to live without harm, and who is entitled to do them harm.

 

[Samson]

One hears about the effect of this or that percolating through society, and well the might, but are you aware of bad effects that actually are percolating through society? Are there such effects that are worse for society than the efforts of those like Cline?

You speak of "fiat" gender identification. But is there evidence that the girl in question was not, at some point in her life, identified as female by someone other than herself? The incident in question involves a presumption, not only that anyone might present as trans, but that anyone can publicly challenge anyone on the grounds of sexual stereotypes, without knowledge, wisdom, authority or cause. Does your opposition mean that you, for example, should be allowed to approach a high school girl and demand that she prove to your satisfaction that she was born with a vagina? If not, why not? How would that differ from the situation this thread is about?

I don't think we're talking here just about a mistake. It's a fundamental problem on who is entitled to live without harm, and who is entitled to do them harm.

There is a cohort of women who hold that men are not women, and that they should not play in women's sport. Maybe Natalie is one of this cohort, and hyper vigilant.
Maybe she is not evil.

 

[JayUtah]

Maybe she is not evil.

She is.