Why I should vote for Trump?

Craig4 said:
It's funny you think that will ever happen.Where are the Americans making this claim? I only hear it from Trump supporters and they can't be trusted. They aren't like Americans, they don't share our American values.
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That's an absurd thing to say. Whether you like them or not, whether you disagree with them or not, they *ARE* Americans. They're Americans with different beliefs and values from you, but they still remain Americans.

It's damned near fascist to try to revoke someone's perceived citizenship on the basis of you not liking them. That creates an environment of authoritarian control and fear. It's downright McArthy-esque.
 
steenkh said:
When you don’t vote you are effectively supporting the majority vote. The election is still taking place, but you get the result that that the majority of voters voted for. You are not going to make a mark whatsoever. Except of course, you helped bring some candidate forward, who you could have voted against.

If for instance, Trump wins, and actually succeeds in taking over everything like his idol Putin did in Russia, you helped him do that, because you could have voted for Biden.
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Don't abstain from voting, vote for a third party. There's a fair bit of research out there that supports a "tipping point" for concepts to catch on - I believe it's somewhere around 15%, but I'm not positive.

So all we need to do to make a meaningful difference in our political landscape is to find an alternative candidate associated with a different party, and manage to get 15% support for them. That wouldn't win them the presidency in this round, but it would very likely produce a substantial shift in the following election cycle, as well as have an impact on congressional and local representation.

And before anyone insists that it's a pipedream, it's already happened in the US. We used to have Whigs.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
Would it need to be anywhere near complete abstinence though? At what point would the whole process become a sham?

Something else to consider: People voting for Trump are either otherwise okay human beings that have become disillusioned with the democratic process and are using it as a way to say **** you, or approaching 50% of the population of the USA are a combination of stupid, vengeful and bigoted.
Either way, the USA and many other democracies are in deep trouble and I don't think the problem is ever going to be solved by holding your nose and casting a ballot for one corrupt politician/party or another, but rather by pointing out the corruption that is so ingrained that politicians either don't see it anymore or just accept it as how business is done.

I think the first change to clean up politics would be to have publicly-funded parties and cap donations at a very low level, say $10-100 per person. Private wealth would not be allowed to be used for political campaigning.
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The highlighted: most of them are some combination of both IMO. And they do not even close to representing 50% of the adult population. Trump will AT BEST get about 45% of the vote in 2024. But even that is misleading, because of the huge number of, mostly younger people, who do not even vote. the vast majority of whom, are just apathetic. They are not Trump supporters. Trump has probably 30 to 35% support among US adults.
 
steenkh said:
When you don’t vote you are effectively supporting the majority vote. The election is still taking place, but you get the result that that the majority of voters voted for. You are not going to make a mark whatsoever. Except of course, you helped bring some candidate forward, who you could have voted against.

If for instance, Trump wins, and actually succeeds in taking over everything like his idol Putin did in Russia, you helped him do that, because you could have voted for Biden.
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That's the rules as written by the chimps at the top of the tree. I say fine, I'll not play the game at all then.

How bad do the options on offer have to be before you would decide not to play?

If the candidates were Hilter and Stalin would you still be telling people you have to vote for one of them or you're responsible for the other one getting into power?
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
That's the rules as written by the chimps at the top of the tree. I say fine, I'll not play the game at all then.

How bad do the options on offer have to be before you would decide not to play?

If the candidates were Hilter and Stalin would you still be telling people you have to vote for one of them or you're responsible for the other one getting into power?
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We're not really at Hitler v Stalin just yet, tho. One is kinda normalish, and the other an openly aspiring dictator. There is still a justification for actively keeping bad out by voting status quo.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
That's the rules as written by the chimps at the top of the tree. I say fine, I'll not play the game at all then.

How bad do the options on offer have to be before you would decide not to play?

If the candidates were Hilter and Stalin would you still be telling people you have to vote for one of them or you're responsible for the other one getting into power?
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Lots of Americans think just like you. Which is why we get ****** candidates in the general, because only the hardcore ideologues even vote in the primaries.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
That's the rules as written by the chimps at the top of the tree. I say fine, I'll not play the game at all then.
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Great. How are you going to stop everyone else?
Ivor the Engineer said:
How bad do the options on offer have to be before you would decide not to play?
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Pretty bad. But that's me, there's large numbers of people who would vote for a brick wall if you painted it the right colour.
Ivor the Engineer said:
If the candidates were Hilter and Stalin would you still be telling people you have to vote for one of them or you're responsible for the other one getting into power?
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If we ever get to that point we would have had to go down a series of seriously horrible actions well before we get to that point, so it would be easier to arrest the slide before.

As for if we were in your ludicrous hypothetical then I'd be campaigning hard for a third party candidate, not suggesting people don't vote at all because if someone doesn't vote then they are still tacitly supporting the winner, or rather the obvious false dichotomy that we're being fed.

You do know there are more than two parties even in the US right? That if for some reason the Democratic Party shot hardline authoritarian in order to match the insanity of the GQP at the national level then you could vote for say, the Greens, or the Socialists, or Libertarians or even a party-less candidate?

The reason voting for the Greens et al is pointless in the US right now is because the system is set up in such a way that they're unlikely to do anything but steal votes from the eventual runner up, but if the system had devolved to the point at which we are running a fascist-racist authoritarian vs a different type of monstrous authoritarian then I'm pretty sure the majority of voters in the US are smart enough to not bend to the obviously ridiculous "choice".
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
Something else to consider: People voting for Trump are either otherwise okay human beings that have become disillusioned with the democratic process and are using it as a way to say **** you, or approaching 50% of the population of the USA are a combination of stupid, vengeful and bigoted.
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It is a combination of both but the former don't seem to be bothered by the presence of the latter
 
Emily's Cat said:
That's an absurd thing to say. Whether you like them or not, whether you disagree with them or not, they *ARE* Americans. They're Americans with different beliefs and values from you, but they still remain Americans.

It's damned near fascist to try to revoke someone's perceived citizenship on the basis of you not liking them. That creates an environment of authoritarian control and fear. It's downright McArthy-esque.
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It's how those filthy scum think of Americans.
 
lobosrul5 said:
The highlighted: most of them are some combination of both IMO. And they do not even close to representing 50% of the adult population. Trump will AT BEST get about 45% of the vote in 2024. But even that is misleading, because of the huge number of, mostly younger people, who do not even vote. the vast majority of whom, are just apathetic. They are not Trump supporters. Trump has probably 30 to 35% support among US adults.
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THAT! Apathy, especially among younger and minority voters, could be the path for Trump to win in 2024. I don't care if you're not crazy about Biden, if you think he's too old, if he doesn't excite you. The cold, hard fact is that MAGA are motivated to vote and they will vote. Not voting for Biden will be a vote for Trump.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
If the candidates were Hilter and Stalin would you still be telling people you have to vote for one of them or you're responsible for the other one getting into power?
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If you really can’t see the difference between two candidates, it shouldn’t matter that you are tacitly supporting the winner.

I would also suggest that you should support a third candidate in that case, instead of remaining silent.
 
steenkh said:
If you really can’t see the difference between two candidates, it shouldn’t matter that you are tacitly supporting the winner.

I would also suggest that you should support a third candidate in that case, instead of remaining silent.
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There was a campaign in the UK that never got off the ground to have 'None of the Above' added to ballots. That would allow an official and accurate estimate of how uninspiring and/or loathsome the candidates up for election are.
 
Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but those of you with strong gender critical views have a reason to vote for Trump in the USA.

Also, those comedians who are struggling to generate good material based on variations of the 'sleepy Joe' trope might benefit if Trump was elected, assuming he can't make criticism of him illegal in the space 4 years.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
There was a campaign in the UK that never got off the ground to have 'None of the Above' added to ballots. That would allow an official and accurate estimate of how uninspiring and/or loathsome the candidates up for election are.
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And what purpose does that serve?

From what I have seen, two types of people tend to use the "both sides are equally bad" (which is often not true) argument:
1. The self-righteous holier-than-thou types who think that they are too good for this world and lament that the real world does not provide the options specific to their "oh so refined tastes";
2. The extreme ideologues who commit to a bad choice despite warnings just to see the people they hate suffer, and then when the truth hits them in the face, blame the opposition for "forcing them' to make the stupid decision.
 
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Ivor the Engineer said:
There was a campaign in the UK that never got off the ground to have 'None of the Above' added to ballots. That would allow an official and accurate estimate of how uninspiring and/or loathsome the candidates up for election are.
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You can just spoil your ballot paper, more than once I've written "They're all wankers" across mine. It's not a proper protest if it can be mistaken for apathy and they actually look at spoiled ballots
 
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Susheel said:
And what purpose does that serve?

From what I have seen, tere are two types of people who tend to use the both sides are equally bad (which is often not true) argument:
1. The self-righteous holyier than thou types who think that they are too good for this world;
2. The extreme ideologues who commit to a bad choice despite warnings just to see the people they hate suffer, and then when the truth hits them in the face, blame the opposition for "forcing them' to make the stupid decision.
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I don't think I've tried to equate Trump to Biden or Republicans to Democrats.

I think both parties need a huge change to be worthy of running anything.

I think a significant change is coming. My guess is within 50 years. It will be largely driven by the pressure climate change and broader environmental degradation puts on society.

Many will look at the individual events as they unfold and try to make sense of them without ever realising they are just manifestations of our environment becoming ever less habitable and an ever more desperate scrabble for possession of what resources remain.

If you are a US citizen feel free to vote for the Republicans or Democrats, but neither party in their present form is going to help save you or your offspring, no matter what soothing words they pour in your ears.
 
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