Why not hanging for carrying out the death penalty?

[catsmate]

If it's personal choice - for me anything that destroys the brain instantly, quite like the huge weight and squash.

Explosives.It wouldn't take much.

Just thinking about it. We have ways.

Shudder to think how high the suicide rate would skyrocket if that could be shown be true or even at least close to it.

Perhaps the Government Lethal Chambers?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Having sadly to experience that with euthanizing my cat a few years back, I was wondering that too. Like it doesn't work with humans?

It works just fine, as demonstrated by those states that allow death with dignity. Someone mentioned earlier (SkepticGinger, I think?) that the medical profession as a whole has declined to participate in executions, and that seems to be the reasoning for why we don't employ that same method.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Nitrogen is certainly plentiful - our atmosphere is loaded with it - and does not present the storage problems that helium does.

Thinking back to a time when I was given nitrous oxide during a medical procedure. The feelings of euphoria were such that I didn't give a damn what was happening to be. So use nitrous oxide first and when the condemned is high as a kite switch it to straight nitrogen. Not only humane but actually a pleasant way to die.

Pretty much.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yeah, but with helium you can ask them if they have any last words after you start the gas...

Now that's some first class gallows humor!

 

[Emily's Cat]

I've made the point above. The religiously tinged notion that execution must be felt as punishment right to the moment of death, requiring conscious realization of the event, is incommensurate with humane death. Is it more moral to kill someone face to face in front of an audience than to lie to them? If you want mercy, tell them they're getting a reprieve and then snuff them in their sleep.

Meh. In my view, if a person has done such wrong that they've been deemed to have forfeited their right to exist within a civilized society, then neither punishment nor mercy is my objective. All I really care about at that point is efficiency. I don't see any good justification for creating suffering in the condemned, nor do I see any justification for alleviating their pain or easing their death. Just make them dead as quickly, efficiently, and cost-effectively as we can reasonably manage.

 

[Thermal]

Meh. In my view, if a person has done such wrong that they've been deemed to have forfeited their right to exist within a civilized society, then neither punishment nor mercy is my objective. All I really care about at that point is efficiency. I don't see any good justification for creating suffering in the condemned, nor do I see any justification for alleviating their pain or easing their death. Just make them dead as quickly, efficiently, and cost-effectively as we can reasonably manage.

A very cost effective method might be to simply shackle the guy and let the populace or the condemned's victim's next of kin/representatives take care of business as they feel is appropriate. Wouldn't cost the state a nickel, except for clean up.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Sorry, I'd missed this post.

Is that true? That nitrogen's better for this than helium? If so, sure, that might be the way to go. (Like I'd said, I half-remember that documentary I'd watched mention Helium, in connection with that suicide place.)

I'm working from 20+ year old memory here, so I wouldn't take my word for it.

About nitrogen alleviating fear and anxiety: laughing gas kind of does that, in fact does that roaringly, I know. But laughing gas clearly won't do, because it is an anesthetic, not poison! And nitrogen, would it actually make people go ha-ha before they die? Seems unlikely --- first, because nitrous oxide is different than nitrogen, and two, because someone inhaling nitrogen will die immediately, won't they, before having time to either laugh or cry? The making-them-smile-via-chemicals part will need to kick in well before the actual killing gas does, surely, maybe hours before.

Yeah, I was thinking of nitrous oxide - Steve touched on that a few posts up. You can still die by N2O, if there's not a source of fresh oxygen involved. But your and Steve's approach of N2O followed by N seems like a better approach to me.

Thinking back to a time when I was given nitrous oxide during a medical procedure. The feelings of euphoria were such that I didn't give a damn what was happening to be. So use nitrous oxide first and when the condemned is high as a kite switch it to straight nitrogen. Not only humane but actually a pleasant way to die.

 

[Emily's Cat]

But in any case, if as you say nitrogen is more efficacious than helium for doing the actual killing, then sure, that would be the way to go, as far as I'm concerned.

I decided to try to figure out an answer to this, and yeah, seems like they're pretty much the same. N might be slightly more efficient than He, only because N is a bit heavier than He, but they're both lighter than O.

On the other hand... death by N can take more than 10 minutes. It only takes a couple of breaths to result in unconsciousness, after which it's all pretty painless. But the actual death is the result of the brain being starved of oxygen and takes a lot longer than I thought it would, according to this workplace safety source:

Just Two Breaths

I'm changing my mind on this one, and going back to the euthanasia approach of sedative followed by central nervous system depressant overdose. Quick, painless, efficient.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I somehow misread the highlighted as dropping dead gorgeous supermodels on you, and had a very confused moment of admiration, repulsion, and arousal.

 

[Ranb]

I did not wade through the entire thread, but....

If a person is not opposed to capitol punishment and they don't want the condemned to suffer, why not go with nitrogen asphyxiation? Cheap, painless, non-hazardous etc.

Ranb

 

[zooterkin]

I did not wade through the entire thread, but....

If a person is not opposed to capitol punishment and they don't want the condemned to suffer, why not go with nitrogen asphyxiation? Cheap, painless, non-hazardous etc.

Ranb

Well, we don't expect you to read the whole thread, but the OP would be a start.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Well, we don't expect you to read the whole thread, but the OP would be a start.

I had the same thought, but figured I should practice biting my tongue every now and then...

 

[Ranb]

Yeah, I still think nitrogen is the way to go instead of hanging.

 

[KDLarsen]

The appeals court has ruled that until we know for certain, that the use of nitrogen asphyxiation will result in a cruel and unusual punishment, that argument won't fly, hence the execution is back on.

"There is no doubt that death by nitrogen hypoxia is both new and novel," the majority wrote in its opinion. "Because we are bound by Supreme Court precedent, Smith cannot say that the use of nitrogen hypoxia, as a new and novel method, will amount to cruel and unusual punishment in violation of the Eighth Amendment by itself."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...gen-gas-execution-us-appeals-court-rcna131910

 

[Planigale]

If you co-operate then it may be fairly quick in causing loss of consciousness. If you take deep breaths until you fall unconscious, probably a minute or so. It is quite likely that there will be hypoxic seizures, significant brain damage but the heart is likely to continue beating for several minutes. There is certainly a risk of vomiting, and this might be partly protective if inhaled as is likely with a tight mask as the vomit in the lungs will reduce the nitrogen access to the lungs. Depending on the circuit vomit might also clog the valves rendering the mask ineffective. Depending on how well the mask is fitting and attached it may come off with a seizure.

If you don't co-operate and try and breath hold it will take longer.

 

[KDLarsen]

There's an interview with Kenneth Smith in which he describes his botched first execution, and the bizarre experience of the prison guards telling him to cooperate for his own good.

 

[W.D.Clinger]

The appeals court has ruled that until we know for certain, that the use of nitrogen asphyxiation will result in a cruel and unusual punishment, that argument won't fly, hence the execution is back on.


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...gen-gas-execution-us-appeals-court-rcna131910

The court is saying it is clearly unusual, but we can't yet know it is cruel, so the court can't reject it on the basis of being both "cruel and unusual".

If it becomes the usual method of execution, then it won't be unusual, at which point the court still won't be able to reject it on the basis of being both "cruel and unusual".

 

[theprestige]

Cruelty is also a matter of intent. If the most humane method is still violently unpleasant, but it is chosen out of a sense of duty to justice rather than out of a desire for the suffering of the accused, can it be termed "cruel"?

I think maybe the wording was chosen to exclude less humane methods when more humane methods were known. Not to arbitrarily exclude this or that punishment because this or that faction didn't think it was cuddly enough.

Basically, "don't invent bizarre and vengeful nonsense, just do the best you can to give people a humane detention and a clean death."

 

[Emily's Cat]

If you co-operate then it may be fairly quick in causing loss of consciousness. If you take deep breaths until you fall unconscious, probably a minute or so. It is quite likely that there will be hypoxic seizures, significant brain damage but the heart is likely to continue beating for several minutes. There is certainly a risk of vomiting, and this might be partly protective if inhaled as is likely with a tight mask as the vomit in the lungs will reduce the nitrogen access to the lungs. Depending on the circuit vomit might also clog the valves rendering the mask ineffective. Depending on how well the mask is fitting and attached it may come off with a seizure.

If you don't co-operate and try and breath hold it will take longer.

Apparently loss of consciousness occurs within two breaths. Brain damage - certainly... but they're dying anyway? There doesn't seem to be any risk of vomiting, but I don't know about seizure.

I know that seizure and vomiting happen with CO2, but it's hitting a very different somatic mechanism. Nitrogen doesn't trigger that, as the body's carbon dioxide levels never get high enough for them. Nitrogen displaces the oxygen, but it doesn't affect CO2 levels at all.

 

[Puppycow]

Alabama Carries Out First U.S. Execution by Nitrogen (NY Times)

Alabama carried out the first American execution using nitrogen gas on Thursday evening, killing a convicted murderer whose jury had voted to spare his life and opening a new frontier in how states execute death row prisoners.

The condemned prisoner, Kenneth Smith, 58, was pronounced dead at 8:25 p.m. Central time, according to Alabama’s governor, Kay Ivey. The Supreme Court allowed the execution to move forward over the objections of its three liberal justices and concerns from death penalty opponents who said that the untested method could cause Mr. Smith to suffer.

Mr. Smith was one of three men convicted in the 1988 murder of a woman whose husband, a pastor, had recruited them to kill her.

Nitrogen hypoxia, as the method is known, has been used in some assisted suicides in Europe and elsewhere, though the precise method that Alabama used differs from common practice. Lawyers for the state have argued that death by nitrogen hypoxia, as it is known, is painless, with unconsciousness occurring in a matter of seconds, followed by stoppage of the heart. They also note that Mr. Smith and his lawyers have themselves identified the method as preferable to the troubled practice of lethal injection in the state.

The fact that this method or a similar principle is used in assisted suicides suggests to me that it is not "cruel or unusual". It's probably one of the most humane possible methods, and I personally would choose it over other methods if it were me.

It seems like a fascinating case to me. The crime happened 35 years ago. What happened to the pastor? Apparently he committed suicide before he could be brought to justice. Such a man of God. These "hitmen" basically worked for peanuts. They were each promised only $1,000, which I don't think they actually received.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Smith_(criminal)

Sort of reminds me of a part in The Green Mile (the book, not the movie) where the narrator talks about how by the time someone is finally executed it's almost like they are a different person from the one who committed the crime.