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Cont: Transwomen are not women - part 13

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But that was my question.


Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying here. You mentioned it in what first quote where it wasn't cut off?
Sigh. Here's what I didn't cut:

Trans is pretty rare in itself. Rare enough that we could evaluate on a case-by-case basis and not necessarily needing a blanket ban?​
Duplication of your point isn't necessary in order to provide the context of our exchange. And my questions stand regardless of count.
 
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Sigh. Here's what I didn't cut:

Trans is pretty rare in itself. Rare enough that we could evaluate on a case-by-case basis and not necessarily needing a blanket ban?​
Duplication of your point isn't necessary in order to provide the context of our exchange.

And then I asked how many cases you thought there would be that it would be highly impractical.

Are we all caught up or is it only other people’s questions being ignored that gets derided? ‘Cause I’ve had other questions people seem to be avoiding.
 
And then I asked how many cases you thought there would be that it would be highly impractical.

Are we all caught up or is it only other people’s questions being ignored that gets derided? ‘Cause I’ve had other questions people seem to be avoiding.
Because the answer is unknowable, I took it as a rhetorical question. But here you go: I don't know.

If you're trying to buttress Joe's contention that you're not debating in good faith, you're doing a damn good job.
 
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He's not debating in bad faith, he's trying to argue a point he doesn't really understand, he just got told "This is what progressives believe."

He's Cargo Culting.
 
If you're trying to buttress Joe's contention that you're not debating in good faith, you're doing a damn good job.

You literally answered a different question that you created by ignoring everything I said except for a single word. How am I the one arguing in bad faith here?
 
I just wanted you to see how bad it is. 'cause it's pretty damn bad.

There's plenty of interlocutors for you to choose from in this thread. I'm not the one that decided to get into a two-day slapfight with JoeMorgue, and then try to foist that interaction as typical.

If you're a TRA or adjacent that wants to talk, that could work. If you're just going to argue in bad faith, that won't.

Anyway, let me know when you two are done, and we'll see. Or engage with Emily's Cat, or Elaedith, and leave Joe to his cynical observer role.
 
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If the answer is "case by case basis" asking "Okay so what criteria are we using on these case by case basises" is no unreasonable.

I'm not ignoring the "Jeez will you read between the lines and just nod and agree that whatever the trans person wants is right because they are the lowest on the official victim chart and stop asking so many questions" subtext just to appease someone, anyone's, personal hangup about how discussion should go.
 
I would replace "sex" with "gender", especially if we're talking about socio-cultural factors. Sex is biological, gender (and gender role) is societal.
I'm not so sure about that choice. If, for instance, women are underrepresented in pool because girls are raised in a way that outcome, that mechanism wouldn't apply to transwomen, who weren't raised as girls.

There may be some subgroup of socio-cultural factors that would apply to both women and transwomen, but the general case seems to be that the factor would be either biological or one imposed on the individual by some societal factor that was based not on the individual's perception of their gender but on society's perception of their sex. Even masculine women face discrimination based on being women, for instance.


The difference is that I provided evidence to support my argument and Zig hasn't. Not that those biological differences don't exist, but that they make a significant difference in professional pool players.

I know people have dismissed the video I posted, but I will point out that it was published by the organization that calculates and tracks those ratings, so it is, at the very least, an appropriate and recognized authority in the subject.

As a disclaimer, it was 6 years ago and many things can happen in 6 years. I previously found some chatter that the rating system had changed in the past few years. So, I take it as true, at least as of 6 years ago.

I understand what you're saying, but what evidence? From what I've seen, there is precious little when it comes to pool that actually breaks down male/female representation and ability. Again, what Zig suggests is conjecture that those biological differences are significant to actual performance.

I think this is actually a major difference in our epistemics. I look at evidence from a bayesian framework, which includes a deep background of knowledge and theory as determining our priors on any particular question. If you hold some substance that I've never seen before and ask me "what will happen if I drop it?" I'll say, with very high confidence, that it will fall. I'll also claim that I have very strong evidence for this, based on the successes of our theory of gravity (mostly Newton's but Einstein's only adds credence). If someone says that I don't have evidence with respect to the specific substance you're holding, which I've never seen fall and thus can't infer that it will act according to that theory, I'll rightly say that their epistemic framework is faulty.

Obviously I'm much less confident about the specific theoretical reasons for thinking that men have an advantage in pool. The point here is that those reasons are evidence.

How confident? I can imagine some ways to test the idea in which I'd be willing to bet on a male biological advantage at about 3 to 1 odds. So not extremely confident*, but that's my weighing of the available evidence.

A different weighing of the evidence may be entirely reasonable, but it's not reasonable to claim that none exists.

*You are definitely right that the impact of athleticism in pool is less than in more typical sports.


Likewise, if evidence were presented that the differences in outcome are due to physiological differences, I'd update my view about segregation in pool. There just hasn't been any.

I certainly agree that what we do know isn't conclusive.
 
The difference is that I provided evidence to support my argument and Zig hasn't. Not that those biological differences don't exist, but that they make a significant difference in professional pool players.

I know people have dismissed the video I posted, but I will point out that it was published by the organization that calculates and tracks those ratings, so it is, at the very least, an appropriate and recognized authority in the subject.

I don't think the evidence you provided did support your argument. All it suggested was that the scores of male and female competitors were comparable. The fact is that when they are compared, males fare better than females, to the extent that only one female has a score that would put her in the Top 100 males. How does that support your argument?
 
You literally answered a different question that you created by ignoring everything I said except for a single word. How am I the one arguing in bad faith here?
I don't think this is vaguely reasonable. But never mind, let's start over.

Please restate your question.To avoid further miscommunication, be specific. Are we talking athletic or non-athletic sports (e.g. pool and archery). Are we talking boys who have physically transitioned, or any boy who self-identifies as Trans? Are we talking about school sports? Are we talking count per school district? Per sport? Per sport per school district?
 
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If, for instance, women are underrepresented in pool because girls are raised in a way that outcome, that mechanism wouldn't apply to transwomen, who weren't raised as girls.

I agree and I've noticed this often getting fudged and fumbled on all sides. If anything there's at least four axes of socialization pressures around gender growing up: boy (and you mostly fit in as a boy) boy (and you super extra do not fit in as a boy); girl (and you mostly fit in as a girl) girl (and you super extra do not fit in as a girl). My point being that people of either sex who grow up with tons of negative feedback about their gender performance nevertheless are NOT growing up with the gender socialization pressures that their society applies to the opposite sex. They're growing up with the gender socialization pressures of performing their gender wrong.

If someone was raised as a boy who obviously didn't fit in as a guy at all, it would probably be accurate for them to say they weren't socialized as, idk, correctly male guys, but it would not be true at all to say they grew up under the social pressures that girls do, even if they identified with girls the whole time.

So yeah the gender based selection pressures around participation in activities would not be the ones experienced by the opposite gender, unless/until the kid was being identified that way by their social environment.

And since people around here treat babies differently by gender from birth, you'd need a different society that doesn't do that at all, to take that effect out of the equation. (Man personally I would have loved gender starting no earlier than puberty, myself! Opt out please!)
 
I don't think this is vaguely reasonable. But never mind, let's start over.

Please restate your question.To avoid further miscommunication, be specific. Are we talking athletic or non-athletic sports (e.g. pool and archery). Are we talking boys who have physically transitioned, or any boy who self-identifies as Trans? Are we talking about school sports? Are we talking count per school district? Per sport? Per sport per school district?
I've been chewing this over and I think I can fast-forward this discussion.

Any number is impractical because of the implications. Fairness is very much part of the equation. Fairness to the girls who fail to make the team. And fairness to the opposing teams who don't allow trans kids on the girls team. And fairness to boys who are not trans but who fail to make the boys team.
 
I'm not so sure about that choice. If, for instance, women are underrepresented in pool because girls are raised in a way that outcome, that mechanism wouldn't apply to transwomen, who weren't raised as girls.
It isn't like flipping a switch. The trans kid in my son's grade school wasn't at all a surprise when they transitioned. Adherence to gender norms (or lack thereof) is completely applicable to pre-transition trans girls as it is to cis girls.

There may be some subgroup of socio-cultural factors that would apply to both women and transwomen, but the general case seems to be that the factor would be either biological or one imposed on the individual by some societal factor that was based not on the individual's perception of their gender but on society's perception of their sex. Even masculine women face discrimination based on being women, for instance.
This is a bit of a tangent (except that I've brought it up before), but what you are talking about here is the perception of their adherence to gender roles. It's the same thing. We very rarely directly observe a person's sex, and even then there are exceptions. More often, we come to a conclusion about someone's sex (gender, really) based on how closely they match our idea of what a particular gender is supposed to look like.

For example, this is an :rolleyes: X thread showing a picture of mayor of Nashville, TN, Freddie O'Connell and his family. Based on the comments (and there are many, many threads like this one), this is a picture of either: two gay men, two lesbians, two adult transgender people, two adult transgender people and one transgender kid, or an entirely cis heterosexual family of four. If you care to dig through those comments, and I don't recommend it, you will see that some think that Freddie is not masculine enough to be a man. Or that some think that his wife is too masculine looking to be a real woman. I'm not quite certain which child some people think are trans, but I think it's the little one.

Now, no one is directly viewing the sex of any of these people. No matter how hard you looks, you will not see anything between the range four penises to four vaginas. People are, instead, comparing them to their idea of what a male gender or female gender is supposed to look like, despite the fact that biologically male and female people have a very wide and overlapping proportions, shapes, and amounts of body hair.


I think this is actually a major difference in our epistemics. I look at evidence from a bayesian framework, which includes a deep background of knowledge and theory as determining our priors on any particular question.
That is a very polite way of saying cognitive bias and has no particular merit over anyone else's personal experience-based Bayesian framework. I will fully admit I don't have the evidence to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no biological sex-based advantage in playing pool, but I also know there isn't enough evidence to suggest that such an advantage, if it exists, is greater than any other genetic advantage one might have.

What I do know is that, as of 6 years ago, the organization that calculates and tracks the ratings of professional pool players published a video that states that biologically female professional pool players are just as capable of top-level playing as biologically male professional pool players. Right now, that is the closest thing to objective evidence from an authoritative source on the matter that we have.


Obviously I'm much less confident about the specific theoretical reasons for thinking that men have an advantage in pool. The point here is that those reasons are evidence.
There are reasons, in the "hypothesis" sense, to believe that there is a biological advantage to playing pool. Evidence is something we're very much lacking, to determine if it is a valid reason or not. Social influence is definitely a possible reason why there could be more men higher placed in the pool ratings that women. Is that a valid reason that trans women should not be allowed to play in the women's league?
 
I agree and I've noticed this often getting fudged and fumbled on all sides. [snip]
I agree with all of this, including the snipped parts, but I would but air -quotes around the highly subjective word "correct". Just because non-conforming boys* don't have the identical negative social pressures as conforming girls*, doesn't mean they can't also have negative social pressure of a similar severity.



* please excuse the short-hand. it's very wordy otherwise.
 
If the answer is "case by case basis" asking "Okay so what criteria are we using on these case by case basises" is no unreasonable.
As far as I can tell, deciding things on a case-by-case basis means either (1) that you are changing your criteria for each case which wouldn't be fair pretty much by definition, or (2) you don't know what your criteria are and are using cases to figure that out, in which case it would be better to just sit down and figure out your criteria and then jettison the case-by-case approach.

None of that should be confused with having different standards for different categories of subjects, given that those criteria and standards are defined before cases start to get judged.

Am I missing something about case-by-case?
 
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