Cont: Luton Airport Car Park Fire part II

[JayUtah]

You address a judge as 'Sir', 'Madam' or 'M'Lud'. This is not Perry Mason.

Obligatory Monty Python reference.
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/5d3db3c5-cfe3-4cac-97d1-369532e260a0#J-GnA7G1

And of course no one expects the Spanish Inquisition.

 

[Mojo]

No. The official written statement of the responsible authority is not a secondary source.

It must be a secondary source, because it doesn't say what Vixen wants it to say.

Vixen's primary sources are those "self-professed garages and dealers" posting on the Daily Mail website.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

IIRR, and I may be wrong, only London has a 64m ALP. There are 16m and 32m platforms elsewhere.

Having worked in the lifting industry (I was project accountant on the largest lifting project in South America), equipment like that takes time to deploy, the outriggers are crucial and great care is taken to ensure that they are on suitable surfaces.

 

[JayUtah]

I'll say one thing: Vixen is remarkably persistent in her excruciatingly embarrassing attempts to "educate" people who are vastly better qualified, better informed and better logicians than her. Brava!

One of the most evocative reasons why armchair detectives are worse than useless.

 

[GlennB]

Having worked in the lifting industry (I was project accountant on the largest lifting project in South America), equipment like that takes time to deploy, the outriggers are crucial and great care is taken to ensure that they are on suitable surfaces.

The only number Vixen recognises is the response time for arrival at the car park. She seems to think that in the following minute high-powered jets of water will be flying towards the fire.

 

[catsmate]

Having worked in the lifting industry (I was project accountant on the largest lifting project in South America), equipment like that takes time to deploy, the outriggers are crucial and great care is taken to ensure that they are on suitable surfaces.

Absolutely, especially when you're spraying a tonne of water every 25 seconds at that height.

 

[Disbelief]

I'll say one thing: Vixen is remarkably persistent in her excruciatingly embarrassing attempts to "educate" people who are vastly better qualified, better informed and better logicians than her. Brava!

I'm just amazed that she has expertise in so many fields. I try to understand my limitations when it comes to many of these threads and am amazed at the knowledge many here have. I do like to add my 2 cents when it is something I do have knowledge of and I find it hilarious that she thinks she needs to explain RHD in the UK to me.

 

[JayUtah]

I'm just amazed that she has expertise in so many fields.

The thrill of being an armchair detective is that you're instantly qualified in any subject that comes up, and should be given appropriate credit for it.

 

[GlennB]

The thrill of being an armchair detective is that you're instantly qualified in any subject that comes up, and should be given appropriate credit for it.

Listing these 'qualifications' could be fun, but would probably be seen as a 'call out', and rather naughty.

Sillius Soddus

 

[SteveAitch]

Yeah, Private Eye recognised that...

 

[GlennB]

Yeah, Private Eye recognised that...

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_758186557d67e3a59e.jpg[/qimg]

I clicked your Flickr link ... brilliant! I know Staines a little and will have another look. Also cats, can't go wrong with cats.

 

[W.D.Clinger]

This fact is worth repeating:

Also the official Fire Service website is a primary source.
It has confirmed several weeks ago that the car was a diesel.

It was confirmed several weeks ago by the Fire Service that it was a diesel car.

[...] has been confirmed by the Fire Service that it was a diesel car

It matters not as the Fire Service have confirmed it was a diesel car that started the fire.

It was a diesel car that started the fire, it has been confirmed by the Fire Service involved.

The fire started in a diesel vehicle, as was confirmed by the Fire Service over a month ago.

My professional standards

That's an interesting mode of argument, but it doesn't really work.

You don't win an argument by getting your critics to roll around on the floor, laughing uncontrollably.

 

[Dabop]

Having worked in the lifting industry (I was project accountant on the largest lifting project in South America), equipment like that takes time to deploy, the outriggers are crucial and great care is taken to ensure that they are on suitable surfaces.

Absolutely, especially when you're spraying a tonne of water every 25 seconds at that height.

I used to drive a tilt tray with a company that had a 'heavy haul rotator' combination towtruck and 'semi crane' often used in accident retrievals/rollovers etc as well as being able to lift and pull broken down large semitrailer prime movers- still with their trailers attached...

When used as a 'crane' it had extending outriggers, and they took a LOT of care on placing and levelling it before deploying the boom- not only does the truck have to be levelled (even a few degrees of 'list' can have dramatic impacts on the stability and weight lifting ability) but you have to assess the surface of what you are lifting from- tar is actually quite a poor surface when it comes to 'point loads' (which is what the outrigger feet represent) and can 'punch through', which can lead to the outriggers sinking and the whole thing possibly tipping over...
And that only had a 12m boom fully extended!!!

I hate to think of what a 64m boom with directed 'water jet' on top adding an axial thrust to the top of a couple of tonnes a minute or more would require to safely set up!!!, even their smaller 32m boom versions (which would only be about halfway up to the fire) is over DOUBLE the height of our boom- you don't just pull up and crank it into the sky LOL
(even then there are 'charts' on the control panels door of the rotator, showing how the angle of lift (both vertical angle ie tilt and the 'swing angle' ie off the back is more stable, directly off the sides almost as much, 45 degrees off any corner greatly reduces stability) and the ground 'load bearing' ability for various surfaces...

All carefully checked before they even start moving a single lever, get it wrong and well- you get to have an 'up close and personal' meeting with the ground...

(I got to run with it quite a few times as the 'offsider' aka 'gopher' (gopher the chains, gopher the shackles, gopher the straps lol), you need a LOT of training and certification before you are allowed to actually operate these things yourself...they preferred to have multiple people onsite when it was being used as a rotator (rather than just a heavy lifter) as more eyes means more safety for all concerned)
ETA not ours, but a very similar one, this one belongs to Ron Pratt who has a youtube channel (LOL- I am subscribed to several 'tow company' channels) for those who don't know what a rotator is...

Lifting a school bus on two winches, the car behind it on the aux boom winches, and he has another one at the rear deck as well still free (plus an underlift on the back for towing trucks etc)
That firefighting rig is literally over four times higher (Rons truck isn't at full height or full extension there)

 

[SteveAitch]

I clicked your Flickr link ... brilliant! I know Staines a little and will have another look. Also cats, can't go wrong with cats.

Thanks. Though the way they are 'developing'* Staines at the moment, plus the usual 'death of the High Street', it may be a bit different from what you knew!


* Surrey needs more accomodation and have decided most of it should be in central Staines.

 

[Vixen]

No. The official written statement of the responsible authority is not a secondary source.



Is it your position that no facts can be known or reported until some kind of final report?

In other cases you have explicitly dismissed final reports in favor of early, unreliable media sources and "guys on the internet."



Is it your position that no facts can be known or reliability reported until the final report of an investigative body?

As an objective person who bases conclusions on fact-finding - and this can only be done as a result of an investigation in the case of a major fire - that is correct. That is my position.

I get that people uninterested in a topic are happy to just go along with an early opinion. Whilst a post-mortem might confirm that early opinion, for me it doesn't become a confirmed fact until that post-mortem has been done.


As for 'guys on the internet', I am quite capable of sifting false fact and opinion from confirmed fact. For example, I saw plenty of Brexiteer views but I was able to see through some of the lies and false facts they presented, they may even have had one or two good points. So yes, I can cope with people having a different opinion from myself. I do not find it threatening. I think people find people with an opinion different from their own threatening because they do not have enough confidence in their critical ability so they often see a counter argument as a personal affront but mainly, the problem is they do not understand how debating works or the rules of debate. So they believe the only solution is to demand that a debate be shut down.

 

[Andy_Ross]

As an objective person who bases conclusions on fact-finding - and this can only be done as a result of an investigation in the case of a major fire - that is correct. That is my position.

I get that people uninterested in a topic are happy to just go along with an early opinion. Whilst a post-mortem might confirm that early opinion, for me it doesn't become a confirmed fact until that post-mortem has been done.


As for 'guys on the internet', I am quite capable of sifting false fact and opinion from confirmed fact. For example, I saw plenty of Brexiteer views but I was able to see through some of the lies and false facts they presented, they may even have had one or two good points. So yes, I can cope with people having a different opinion from myself. I do not find it threatening. I think people find people with an opinion different from their own threatening because they do not have enough confidence in their critical ability so they often see a counter argument as a personal affront but mainly, the problem is they do not understand how debating works or the rules of debate. So they believe the only solution is to demand that a debate be shut down.

The Fire Service has confirmed on their official website that the car that started the fire was a diesel.

You don't get any more primary.

 

[Vixen]

Yet this is what you said before:



Which is different from under the front passenger seat. You do realize there is a lot of car in front of the passenger. Also, you claim to know about the battery location, but you don't seem to realize that different models have them in different locations. Instead of saying you AIUI about the battery location, how about you actually look it up and source it.

ETA: And as Andy Ross so elegantly put it, The Fire Service confirmed it was a diesel car.

I do understand that different car models have their lithium battery in different places. I understand that a Range Rover Evoque does have its battery near the front passenger.

I am aware that this can change in a different year.

Here is everything we know so far (the correct and full version):

Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service revealed on Wednesday morning the cause of the blaze was a diesel car.

“We don’t believe it was an electric vehicle,” Andrew Hopkinson, chief fire officer for Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service, said.

“It’s believed to be diesel-powered, at this stage all subject to verification. And then that fire has quickly and rapidly spread.”

Independent

 

[Vixen]

It was a diesel car that started the fire, it has been confirmed by the Fire Service involved.

The full and correct quote is as follows:

Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service revealed on Wednesday morning the cause of the blaze was a diesel car.

“We don’t believe it was an electric vehicle,” Andrew Hopkinson, chief fire officer for Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service, said.

“It’s believed to be diesel-powered, at this stage all subject to verification. And then that fire has quickly and rapidly spread.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/what-caused-the-luton-airport-fire-b2429048.html

Stop spreading misinformation.

 

[Vixen]

Vixen - did the fire start with a diesel powered car?

See above for the full and correct information we have so far.

 

[Vixen]

I wonder if Vixen realizes that after the fire spread, it certainly did ignite battery powered cars. I mean the odds of there being some hybrids or pure battery cars in that parking garage is essentially100%. Everyone knows this. And... no one has denied this. We all are aware that lithium batteries are flammable.

We are talking about Car Zero.