General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[Ziggurat]

it's not a war - it's an anti-terrorist action. Only one side is a State Actor.

That's really not true. Hamas is a state actor. It's got a government, it has citizens, it controls territory. It's a state actor. Refusing to recognize it as a state actor doesn't make it not a state actor.

And state actors can engage in acts of terrorism as part of war. These things aren't mutually exclusive.

And just because your opponent commits atrocities DOES NOT give you the right to commit atrocities right back

What exactly do you mean by "atrocities"? If any military action against Hamas which results in civilian casualties is considered an atrocity, then actually yes, Israel has the right to commit atrocities.

The very best argument you can make is from a "end justifies the means" perspective, but that would require Israel to formulate and publicize a plan for what comes after that would lead to a much better outcome for Israeli and Gazans alike.

See, that's just stupid. There's no obligation to publicize your plans. There's no obligation to give your enemy an opportunity to thwart them.

Retaliation for its own sake IS NOT A LEGITIMATE RESPONSE !

It absolutely is. Simple game theory indicates that retaliation is actually a moral imperative. Are you not familiar with tit-for-tat strategies in iterated prisoner's dilemma games?

 

[webfusion]

Not only did HAMAS directly choose to start a war, but they did so with the intention of having many thousands of their own people be caught up in it, and dying. For the effect of rallying their supporters to go into the streets of cities worldwide and be an integral part of their war effort.
It was all designed to go that way. (See: David Satterfield)
https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-772650

 

[JoeMorgue]

Again. Hamas would kill every single person in this thread. The IDF would not.

A "Palestinian State" would just be another Muslim theocracy with a ****** human rights record. Israel as a county at least has the potential to not be that.

No amount of colonial white guilt Progressive Stacking will change that.

Hamas is everything that coffee shop liberals put on huge airs about hating the American Right for times 1000%

If Hamas was a group of Christian Nationalists and absolutely everything else about the conflict was 100% the exact same, you all would hate them without all the reservations and we all know it.

 

[Leumas]

War is brutal. Innocent lives are lost and ruined. But war is what Hamas wanted. War is what Hamas chose.

(1) A state cannot have a war against the people it is already occupying and confining in concentration camps.

(2) Nope... this violence is what the SETTLER COLONIALISTS chose... had they treated their victims not in the same manner the NAZIs treated them and their parents... they might have had a more peaceable outcome... alas!!! It is a wretched fact of the miserable humanity that most of the abused become abusers themselves when they have the power

A generation of settlement are we, and without the steel helmet and the maw of the cannon we shall not plant a tree, nor build a house. Our children shall not have lives to live if we do not dig shelters; and without the barbed wire fence and the machine gun, we shall not pave a path nor drill for water. The millions of Jews, annihilated without a land, peer out at us from the ashes of Israeli history and command us to settle and rebuild a land for our people.

 

[Hercules56]

That's really not true. Hamas is a state actor. It's got a government, it has citizens, it controls territory. It's a state actor. Refusing to recognize it as a state actor doesn't make it not a state actor.

And state actors can engage in acts of terrorism as part of war. These things aren't mutually exclusive.



What exactly do you mean by "atrocities"? If any military action against Hamas which results in civilian casualties is considered an atrocity, then actually yes, Israel has the right to commit atrocities.



See, that's just stupid. There's no obligation to publicize your plans. There's no obligation to give your enemy an opportunity to thwart them.



It absolutely is. Simple game theory indicates that retaliation is actually a moral imperative. Are you not familiar with tit-for-tat strategies in iterated prisoner's dilemma games?

Legally speaking, War can only take place between two or more states. Hamas is not a state.

Unless you are saying the State of Israel and the State of Palestine are at war.

 

[Hercules56]

(1) A state cannot have a war against the people it is already occupying and confining in concentration camps.

(2) Nope... this violence is what the SETTLER COLONIALISTS chose... had they treated their victims not in the same manner the NAZIs treated them and their parents... they might have had a more peaceable outcome... alas!!! It is a wretched fact of the miserable humanity that most of the abused become abusers themselves when they have the power

I'm not sure that's accurate. Palestine is a state recognized by many nations and the UNGA. That means they can legally be in a state of war with Israel.

However Israel says they are at war with Hamas, not Palestine.

 

[Ziggurat]

Legally speaking,

Legally speaking, Taiwan isn't a separate state independent of China.

But in reality it is.

The reality is that Israel and Hamas are at war. If the law doesn't recognize that, that's a shortcoming of the law, it doesn't determine the reality.

Unless you are saying the State of Israel and the State of Palestine are at war.

Gaza and the West Bank are functionally independent of each other. "Palestine" suggests both, and Israel is not currently at war with the West Bank. Recognized or not, Gaza is effectively a state, and since Hamas controls Gaza, Hamas is that state.

 

[Ziggurat]

(1) A state cannot have a war against the people it is already occupying and confining in concentration camps.

Israel did not occupy any part of Gaza since 2005.

(2) Nope... this violence is what the SETTLER COLONIALISTS chose... had they treated their victims not in the same manner the NAZIs treated them and their parents... they might have had a more peaceable outcome... alas!!! It is a wretched fact of the miserable humanity that most of the abused become abusers themselves when they have the power

If Israel actually treated Gaza like the Nazis treated the Jews, then Gaza would have been wiped clean of all Palestinians decades ago. Instead, the population of Gaza has continually increased, and not because of immigration. What kind of genocide produces population growth among its victims? And how stupid do you think other forum members are that you expect anyone would buy your comparison for even a second?

 

[Leumas]

...Israel as a county at least has had the potential to not be that.

But instead religious zealot psychopaths in power made that impossible... even before the creation of Israel.

Like these guys and Netanyahu and his allies in government and the war criminals and terrorists who founded his Likud party.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Someone give me a valid criticism of Israel that doesn't apply to Hamas times 1,000.

 

[Ziggurat]

Someone give me a valid criticism of Israel that doesn't apply to Hamas times 1,000.

They're Jews.

At the end of the day, that's the real difference that gets Israel condemned and Hamas excused. There's really no point in pretending there's anything else behind it.

 

[Leumas]

Israel did not occupy any part of Gaza since 2005.

Hahaha... the most risible "alternative 'facts'" promulgated by Israel to bamboozle only the most willingly gullible people.... you know jolly well that the above statement is pure hoodwinking.

...how stupid do you think other forum members are that you expect anyone would buy [...][this] for even a second?

If Israel actually treated Gaza like the Nazis treated the Jews, then Gaza would have been wiped clean of all Palestinians decades ago.

Are you stating that the Nazis exterminated all Jews in Europe... or even the ones in their concentration camps?

You know jolly well that this not the case...

...how stupid do you think other forum members are that you expect anyone would buy [...][this] for even a second?

Instead, the population of Gaza has continually increased,

Yes with refugees from Israel.

and not because of immigration.

No... because of refugees from Israel

What kind of genocide produces population growth among its victims? And how stupid do you think other forum members are that you expect anyone would buy your comparison for even a second?

The kind of genocide and ethnic cleansing that Israel did on the Palestinians.

 

[Leumas]

Someone give me a valid criticism of Israel that doesn't apply to Hamas times 1,000.

Settler Colonialism... Ethnic cleansing... apartheid... cutting off water and food and power from millions of people... occupying other people... demolishing people's houses and making refugees out of them (if not also kill them or imprison them) in order to take their land for settler colonials from Ukraine and Russia and USA and India and Africa etc.

etc. etc. etc.

 

[lionking]

(1) A state cannot have a war against the people it is already occupying and confining in concentration camps.

(2) Nope... this violence is what the SETTLER COLONIALISTS chose... had they treated their victims not in the same manner the NAZIs treated them and their parents... they might have had a more peaceable outcome... alas!!! It is a wretched fact of the miserable humanity that most of the abused become abusers themselves when they have the power

It doesn’t matter how many times you repeat it, it doesn’t make it true.

 

[Leumas]

Not only did HAMAS directly choose to start a war,

So when the resistance against the Nazi occupation were subjected to Sippenhaftung by the Nazis... it was the resistance's fault as the Nazis claimed?

 

[Ziggurat]

Hahaha... the most risible "alternative 'facts'" promulgated by Israel to bamboozle only the most willingly gullible people.... you know jolly well that the above statement is pure hoodwinking.

It's absolutely true. Which is why you can't refute it, only deny it.

Are you stating that the Nazis exterminated all Jews in Europe... or even the ones in their concentration camps?

They tried to, and given more time, they would have. They only failed because they ran out of time.

Israel has had plenty of time. They have not tried to. That much is clear. Even you must know that, though you pretend otherwise.

Yes with refugees from Israel.

Gaza hasn't had refugees from Israel in decades. They have had population growth internally during those decades. Seriously, do you not know anything about Gaza demographics? Hell, internal population growth is something that Hamas uses as justification for not making peace with Israel. They believe that they'll eventually overtake Israel in population size and so victory is inevitable.

That's not what genocide looks like.

 

[Leumas]

It doesn’t matter how many times you repeat it, it doesn’t make it true.

It is true... and it does not matter how many times you deny it... it will still remain true.

 

[webfusion]

Leumas, what do you propose happen from here on out?

(Besides the idea of demolishing the structures within the 37-acre public park known as Haram alSharif?)

You keep quoting history, and that's all so very (academically) interesting, but what about 2024?

That's what everyone is trying to evaluate.

N.B. -- An agreement was reportedly reached between Israel and Hamas for the release of Palestinian female and child prisoners that Israel holds, in exchange for freeing one hundred hostages from the Gaza Strip, according to Saudi network Al Arabiya (published at 9am Israel time).

 

[Leumas]

It's absolutely true. Which is why you can't refute it, only deny it.

It is totally not true... which is why you keep bare asserting despite the FACTS of international law and sanity.

 

[JoeMorgue]

"White guilt" isn't a reason. Try again.