Luton Airport Car Park Fire

[Foster Zygote]

Where you pondered on my level of misunderstanding.

Yeah, let's look at that:

I wonder if Vixen has been proceeding under the misapprehension that all the structural damage to the parking garage was caused by the one vehicle alone. The way she's been arguing, I'm not sure she understands that the initial vehicle fire was just the ignition point for the greater fire. She also doesn't seem to understand that while diesel may have a higher ignition temperature, it contains about 18% more energy by volume. She seems to have seized on the fact that diesel doesn't ignite quite as easily as gasoline, and inferred that it is much less energetic when it burns, which is simply not the case.

Nothing in there comes even remotely close to an ad hominem attack. Even flat out stating, "you are wrong", and/or " you don't know what you're talking about " is not an ad hominem attack, no matter how much it hurts your feelings.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

It clearly says that the cheapest of structures will contain a fire for at least one hour.

To allow time for evacuation. Right. So, how long after the fire began did the Luton structure fail?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... the Liverpool ECHO car park fire was so intense (but not as intense as the Luton one!)

How did you reach that conclusion?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Parked 1965 UK cars. Significantly smaller than modern cars, and with entirely steel body panels and steel fuel tanks. It's tedious that you won't let that significant information through your cognitive filter but I guess the dead horse isn't going to flog itself, so it's up to you.

I even provided pictures showing two of the most popular makes and models at the time the report was written. Very compact compared to modern vehicles and no plastic in sight anywhere.

 

[JayUtah]

Strangely enough, the whole theory of Fire Prevention and Fire Fighting is based on...predictability. As based on research and historical examples.

No, you are not a firefighter or a fire safety engineer. You are not the teacher. Yes, there is wisdom in studying prior fires to see what factors apply in each case and how. That's not the same as concluding that all fires are the same. They aren't.

In JayUtah's books this = conspiracy theory.

Not my claim. Your inappropriate, uninformed expectation isn't per se a conspiracy theory, but you concoct a conspiracy theory to explain differences you wrongly believe are suspicious.

Hush, we can't have a good idea of what caused the Luton Car Park Fire because it is completely unique and unfathomable.

Not my claim, but have fun playing with your little straw men.

 

[GraculusTheGreenBird]

Read the Merseyside Fire Report carefully. It draws on careful and extensive research in 1965 into car park fires. It clearly says that the cheapest of structures will contain a fire for at least one hour.



So we have a bog standard diesel car less flammable than a petrol. OK so it gives off plastics which tends to melt rather than spread with black heavy fumes of hydrocarbons. The Fire Report confirms that fire is unlikely to spread from vehicle to vehicle in parked cars. The fact of an electrical fault AND a ruptured fuel pump AND the fuel burning are three separate elemtns coming together, including a fourth: that of the burning fuel draining to lower floors.

Well, if the Liverpool fire was a Range Rover with aforementioned problems then the homily that 'Once in History is a Tragedy, Twice is a Farce', becomes true.

Yet the Liverpool fire took two hours to become out of control, despite those four faults.

Stop pointing out fires on youtube of burning cars. Nobody is claiming ICE cars do not burn.

Think of your nearest parking area. Do you really think that if you drop a lighted cigarette under one car that soon - WHOOSH! - the entire car park is aflame within three-quarters of an hour? It doesn't happen.

Irrelevant. It was a diesel car that started it, according to the fire service.
You continue to ignore this, and look like a massive tool.

 

[Vixen]

Nope. And quoting the regulations doesn't determine the nature of a particular structure.

The following is from The Liverpool Echo

eta: link

[imgw=500]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=48342&stc=1&d=1698776554[/imgw]

The Merseyside Fire report states that although it was categorised as an open car park:

Kings Dock car park is an 8 level, open-sided construction, comprising a ground and
seven upper floors, the seventh being roof top parking. The footprint is 4930m². The
construction method is concrete columns and beams, with tied in reinforced pre-cast
ribbed concrete floors.

It then goes on to say:

3. The sheer size of Kings Dock Car Park brings into question the validity of
categorising it as open-sided.

This is because of its floor area of 24,000m².

 

[Vixen]

OK, so have you crunched the numbers on what temperature arises as you move away from the theorized burning battery? Like, how long would the concrete have to be exposed to the burning temperature to raise the concrete (at whatever thickness and area it covered) to actually melt it as you propose?

I'm sure a qualified engineer will happen along to opine on this puppy shortly. I'm only thinking in terms of max temperature versus radiating/convecting temps and basics like that.

Eta: I can hold a match burning at 451F a fraction of an inch from my fingertip, for example. Takes some doing for that max temperature to get to stuff its not in direct contact with and expand across a wide area

At last, someone who understands the concept of ambience as opposed to those who believe external heat can bring the object of it to the same temperature pronto (for example applying 700°C arc oxy-acetyline to a piece of cast iron in your living room). Yes, it would take time to bring a metal or other material to its flash or ignition point.

But it happened virtually straight away here. OK so one diesel car exploding into flame okaaaaay but the entire building of 1,500 vehicles half an hour later...hmmmm.

 

[Vixen]

Parked 1965 UK cars. Significantly smaller than modern cars, and with entirely steel body panels and steel fuel tanks. It's tedious that you won't let that significant information through your cognitive filter but I guess the dead horse isn't going to flog itself, so it's up to you.

A modern car's chassis is made of carbon steel. I understand that the reasoning behind this is that if one is in a crash, the exterior crumbles quickly, thus lessening the impact to the occupants but probably does mean it is less fire resistant. An EV car's chassis is made of carbon fibre or alloys:

Materials for main frame can range from carbon-fibre to alloys of aluminium/zinc/magnesium depending on cost and usage. Interestingly, everywhere else technology is moving towards lighter but expensive products.14 Feb 2022

Simple tech: EV chassis design - Overdrive

Does it make the spread of a fire from one car to another without a burning escaped fluid thread connecting them all more likely? I don't know.

 

[Vixen]

Yeah, let's look at that:



Nothing in there comes even remotely close to an ad hominem attack. Even flat out stating, "you are wrong", and/or " you don't know what you're talking about " is not an ad hominem attack, no matter how much it hurts your feelings.

What? My feelings are not hurt. It is my sense of logic that is outraged by the idea that a person thinks they can win a debate by low blows.


It is rare that I misunderstand anything.

 

[Vixen]

To allow time for evacuation. Right. So, how long after the fire began did the Luton structure fail?

'Major incident' called within fifty minutes of the first call to 999. All firemen evacuated.

 

[Vixen]

How did you reach that conclusion?

Time taken for the fire to be officially 'out of control'.

 

[Andy_Ross]

At last, someone who understands the concept of ambience as opposed to those who believe external heat can bring the object of it to the same temperature pronto (for example applying 700°C arc oxy-acetyline to a piece of cast iron in your living room). Yes, it would take time to bring a metal or other material to its flash or ignition point.

But it happened virtually straight away here. OK so one diesel car exploding into flame okaaaaay but the entire building of 1,500 vehicles half an hour later...hmmmm.

It was caused by a diesel car
The fire service have confirmed it

 

[GlennB]

The Merseyside Fire report states that although it was categorised as an open car park: ...

Your (extremely rare, yet still mealy-mouthed) retraction is accepted.

 

[Andy_Ross]

A modern car's chassis is made of carbon steel. I understand that the reasoning behind this is that if one is in a crash, the exterior crumbles quickly, thus lessening the impact to the occupants but probably does mean it is less fire resistant. An EV car's chassis is made of carbon fibre or alloys:

You made that up.

Does it make the spread of a fire from one car to another without a burning escaped fluid thread connecting them all more likely? I don't know.

It has been confirmed by the fire service that it was a diesel car

 

[Vixen]

I even provided pictures showing two of the most popular makes and models at the time the report was written. Very compact compared to modern vehicles and no plastic in sight anywhere.

Maybe for some makes of cars but have you seen the size and weights for some US coupes?

ETA: classic cars are very popular in Finland. If you go to Turku city centre on a spring or summer weekend you can see any number just cruising around.

https://www.instagram.com/old.cars.finland/

 

[wollery]

Maybe for some makes of cars but have you seen the size and weights for some US coupes?

What's that got to do with cars in the UK?

 

[Vixen]

You made that up.



It has been confirmed by the fire service that it was a diesel car

No, it hasn't been confirmed. It is 'believed to be a diesel...at this stage...subject to verification'.

No amount of plain english speak for the plebs changes that perspective.

Do you really not understand what Andrew Hopkinson said in his one and only press release?

 

[Vixen]

What's that got to do with cars in the UK?

I am not entirely convinced by the argument that car park fires in diesels were less frequent in the old days because cars were smaller and used fewer plastics.

Plastics whilst noxious aren't particularly flammable. For a plastic petrol tank to melt it would need to get to the relevant temperature first. Would that be within ten minutes? <shrug>

 

[zooterkin]

I don't know.

At last, a comment I can't disagree with.