Luton Airport Car Park Fire

[Crazy Chainsaw]

The thing about mechanics, professional, home or classic, is that their experience tends to be gained by working on cars that AREN'T on fire!

Agreed.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Right, then it needs to be a reasonably modern car with at least some fuel in the tank, otherwise it's a pretty useless experiment. Sounds extremely dangerous.

Sounds useless anyway it doesn't include air compression effects of a buildings collapse.

 

[Mojo]

No. The context of my complaining about the use of logical fallacies, in this case, the ad hominem logical fallacy was nothing at all to do with me or my feelings. To illustrate the point, suppose we have Person A and Person B.

PERSON A: The sum of two plus two equals four.

PERSON B: No, it doesn't, you moron, two plus two equals five, you idiot.

PERSON A : Sorry, but your ad hominem is a logical fallacy.

No, it isn't. The ad hominem fallacy is concluding that someone's argument is false on the basis of their personal characteristics.

Ad hominem fallacy: you're wrong because you're a moron.
Not the ad hominem fallacy: you're wrong and you're a moron.
Also not the ad hominem fallacy: you're a moron because you're wrong.

Person B has not made a connection between person A being a moron and an idiot and their claim being wrong, so while calling person A a moron and an idiot is a personal attack, they have not committed the ad hominem fallacy.

 

[JayUtah]

Are you able to do this?

Yes. The explanation is and has always been that your comparison is naive. You don't know what you're talking about.

The end.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

So please explain how this 'diesel only' car managed to burn down the whole building within fifty-one minutes

You get annoyed when people ask if you think one car burned down the whole building, but then you post this.

The most obvious difference between a parked car and a running car is the latter's fuel pump will be running, and will continue to spray fuel out of any leak until the pump's wiring shorts out and it stops.

It's already been explained that modern cars are larger and contain much more combustible material than 1960s cars, making the spread of a fire to nearby cars much more likely. Modern cars are also much more likely to have plastic rather than steel fuel tanks: less likely to rust and leak, less likely to rupture in a crash, but not fire resistant.

You are persisting with the silly notion that this one example of a fire in Liverpool has to be taken as typical. I reject that. If you want to convince us of what typical car fires are really like, kindly bring more than 1 data point.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Now compare and contrast the Luton car park fire. OK, so we have uncoated steel instead of concrete, meaning they become malleable at 500°C before concrete begins to spall at 600°C bur remaining quite fire resistant, concrete needing circa 1,600°C to 'melt' and collapse as it were. That makes it less 'safe' than the Liverpool car park. But nonetheless, the steel doesn't actually catch fire, just makes the structure unsound and prone to collapsing floors.

Tell everyone you don't know what you're talking about without saying you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Vixen]

You're embellishing again. A 1960s UK study would scarcely have considered diesel cars at all as there were so few of them.

OK, fair enough. It just says cars. But petrol cars ae far more inflammable than diesel. A simple spark will do it. So if a parked petrol ICE car is safe as far as the Fire Brigade is concerned, then so should be a diesel.

Its findings:

This research demonstrated, amongst other things, that:
 sprinklers are effective in both controlling a developing and fully developed fire
 running fuel fires spread the fire
 current methods to calculate ventilation openings from open-sided car parks
and mechanical ventilation in enclosed car parks needed to be considered
 the ease with which a car fire in a car park spread to nearby cars and once a
very severe fire has developed, fire will spread to other cars separated by an
un-filled parking bay, and
 fire conditions in partial and fully closed car parks are much more severe than
in open sided car parks

https://www.bafsa.org.uk/wp-content...er/2018/12/Merseyside-FRS-Car-Park-Report.pdf

 

[JayUtah]

But petrol cars ae far more inflammable than diesel. A simple spark will do it.

No.

 

[Vixen]

No, it isn't. The ad hominem fallacy is concluding that someone's argument is false on the basis of their personal characteristics.

Ad hominem fallacy: you're wrong because you're a moron.
Not the ad hominem fallacy: you're wrong and you're a moron.
Also not the ad hominem fallacy: you're a moron because you're wrong.

Person B has not made a connection between person A being a moron and an idiot and their claim being wrong, so while calling person A a moron and an idiot is a personal attack, they have not committed the ad hominem fallacy.

But they would not be the people doing the concluding. They might think they have won the debate but no fair person judging the debate would consider ad hominem to be a winner. This is why judges tend to be the wise amongst us and not the hotheaded.

 

[welshdean]

Nor the stubbornly wrong.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

The usual way. Heat. Fuel. Oxygen.

Has Vixen explained what relevance the make of the first car has to how quickly the fire spread once the fire spread from the first car? I'm no engineer, but ISTM that once other stuff catches, *that's* what determines how the fire behaves?

 

[JayUtah]

I'm no engineer, but ISTM that once other stuff catches, *that's* what determines how the fire behaves?

I am, and you're right. That the first of many cars to burn was a diesel-fueled car has no effect on the overall heat profile. The initial spread of fire by means of flowing Class B combustibles could be considered part of the fire's "behavior," but you cover that.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Has Vixen explained what relevance the make of the first car has to how quickly the fire spread once the fire spread from the first car?

If it's an aspirational brand then all the ordinary cars nearby want to be just like it.

 

[Vixen]

Has Vixen explained what relevance the make of the first car has to how quickly the fire spread once the fire spread from the first car? I'm no engineer, but ISTM that once other stuff catches, *that's* what determines how the fire behaves?

The fire brigade has arrived promptly. What was the problem putting out the fire when the initial vehicle is still on the road way and not in a parking bay next to other cars. What was the problem in putting out a simple fuel leak fire which the fire brigade itself says can be dealt with by water?

 

[erwinl]

The fire brigade has arrived promptly. What was the problem putting out the fire when the initial vehicle is still on the road way and not in a parking bay next to other cars. What was the problem in putting out a simple fuel leak fire which the fire brigade itself says can be dealt with by water?

Seeing as you want to know this so much, I can't imagine, you haven't asked the fire brigade.
What was their answer to you?

 

[GlennB]

The fire brigade has arrived promptly. What was the problem putting out the fire when the initial vehicle is still on the road way and not in a parking bay next to other cars. What was the problem in putting out a simple fuel leak fire which the fire brigade itself says can be dealt with by water?

nm

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The fire brigade has arrived promptly. What was the problem putting out the fire when the initial vehicle is still on the road way and not in a parking bay next to other cars. What was the problem in putting out a simple fuel leak fire which the fire brigade itself says can be dealt with by water?

You're inventing a fictionalised scenario in your head and demanding others explain it to you.

How far away from the burning car was the plastic front bumper of the nearest parked car? How many cars were already alight by the time the fire brigade arrived at the car park? How many were alight by the time any firefighters got up to the third level, assuming they did? You don't know. Stop assuming only one car was on fire when the fire brigade got to it.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

The fire brigade has arrived promptly. What was the problem putting out the fire when the initial vehicle is still on the road way and not in a parking bay next to other cars. What was the problem in putting out a simple fuel leak fire which the fire brigade itself says can be dealt with by water?

Was only the one car burning when they arrived at the scene?

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

The fire brigade has arrived promptly. What was the problem putting out the fire when the initial vehicle is still on the road way and not in a parking bay next to other cars. What was the problem in putting out a simple fuel leak fire which the fire brigade itself says can be dealt with by water?

Plastic Tanks and fuel spillage, water spreading an oil fire.

Once the tank melts the fuel follows the path of gravity, and water only spreads the fire.

Do you ever do qny cooking? Same reason you cover an oil fire to smother it.

 

[Vixen]

You're inventing a fictionalised scenario in your head and demanding others explain it to you.

How far away from the burning car was the plastic front bumper of the nearest parked car? How many cars were already alight by the time the fire brigade arrived at the car park? How many were alight by the time any firefighters got up to the third level, assuming they did? You don't know. Stop assuming only one car was on fire when the fire brigade got to it.

They obviously did because five immediately became overcome by smoke inhalation. Now I wonder what type of car burns so fiercely it fires off lighted projectiles setting other vehicles alight, gives off highly noxious fumes and falls through the melted concrete floor in flames, instead of the heat rising up to the ceiling as in Liverpool.