The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

If I was using small demolition charges to sink a ship, I would put them on the sea pipes taking water from the engine and generator cooling system. If I blow them I am pumping thousands of gallons of water in to the machinery spaces. Even when the engines are finally drowned the water is still coming in with no way to stop it.
 
Vixen said:
Answer me this: do you have specific qualifications in Material Science Metallurgy? A simple yes or no will suffice.
Click to expand...

You're so incompetent in this area you don't even understand that isn't a valid question. Jesus.
 
Vixen said:
The last noun mentioned was 'divers' hence of which he was himself makes perfect logical sense.
Click to expand...


Yes, and the statement "it has since been removed by bomb disposal divers, as Braidwood himself was" means that they removed both "it" (whatever it was) and Braidwood.
 
zooterkin said:
To return to this, prompted by a mention in another thread.


Re. the highlighted. This is the first post I can find on the forum that even uses the word 'hexacomposite'. Vixen, would you care to explain what it means and where Robin Braidwood said he recognised such a device?

I can find no mentions of 'hexacomposite' via google, either, apart from your posts on this forum, so it looks like something you have invented, but I'm sure you can explain.
Click to expand...
The term appears (rarely) in MatSci, generally in relation to carbon structures (or sometimes silicon).

The term is used in a 2000 Die Woche story, which appears to be either a mis-translation or a distortion of the common explosive hexogen, better known as RDX.
 
Vixen said:
As discussed in the past, Mr. Braidwood, who was an explosives expert for the Royal Navy for 45-years and served as Lt. Cdr. and also as a lecturer in bomb disposal and associated topics, together with being highly decorated (OBE, Medals for Gallantry), identified an object in a naval video of the underwater car ramp deck by the bow visor, as being a device roughly 100mm by 100mm and placed on what appeared to be a magnet 200mm by 200m as a typical detonating device, much used by the Soviet bloc and from his own naval experiences. He states all that is need is to mould the plastic explosive (such as Semtex) into shape, apply a timer (of up to 24 hours) so that the device doesn't go off in your presence and he recognised this item in the video. It would be grossly irresponsible for Braidwood to actually describe how to make up such a device but he says this could be a commercial one made up of a liquid or powder, such as Fixor (note the 'X')- which is the only chemical he specifically names - or ready manufactured, for example, the military. He points out here is ready availability and easy access to make such a device. In fact, he recognised the image immediately because it is very similar to what the Royal Navy use.
Click to expand...
Citations required, given your propensity for fabrications.
 
catsmate said:
Citations required, given your propensity for fabrications.
Click to expand...
Braidwoods report, much linked recently, contains a brief c.v. including such highlights as investigating the bombed and sunk Rainbow Warrior. Of course Vixen's propensity to embellish means she previously told us fictions including that he defused that bomb, and that he personally dived on the Estonia to recover steel samples too.
 
Vixen said:
As discussed in the past, Mr. Braidwood, who was an explosives expert for the Royal Navy for 45-years and served as Lt. Cdr. and also as a lecturer in bomb disposal and associated topics, together with being highly decorated (OBE, Medals for Gallantry), identified an object in a naval video of the underwater car ramp deck by the bow visor, as being a device roughly 100mm by 100mm and placed on what appeared to be a magnet 200mm by 200m as a typical detonating device, much used by the Soviet bloc and from his own naval experiences. He states all that is need is to mould the plastic explosive (such as Semtex) into shape, apply a timer (of up to 24 hours) so that the device doesn't go off in your presence and he recognised this item in the video. It would be grossly irresponsible for Braidwood to actually describe how to make up such a device but he says this could be a commercial one made up of a liquid or powder, such as Fixor (note the 'X')- which is the only chemical he specifically names - or ready manufactured, for example, the military. He points out here is ready availability and easy access to make such a device. In fact, he recognised the image immediately because it is very similar to what the Royal Navy use.
Click to expand...

Braidwood was not awarded an OBE. Nor did he ever claim he had been awarded one, and his family have not made such a claim either as can be seen from the acount of his funeral where they do note his Queen's Commendation for Brave Conduct.

The idea that he had an OBE appears to be wholly invented - why anybody would invent such a thing is baffling. It's so easy to check - which I did by checking all the honours lists from The London Gazette in every possible year.
 
My dad got the Queen's Commendation while he was on the SS Uganda in the 60s. It was for saving several crew members overcome by fumes after an explosion in an air conditioning room.
He went in three times to pull people out before being overcome by fumes himself
He was rescued by the the first mate and other crew that arrived with breathing apparatus.
I have a picture of him at Buckingham Palace with the award.
 
Agatha said:
Braidwood was not awarded an OBE. Nor did he ever claim he had been awarded one, and his family have not made such a claim either as can be seen from the acount of his funeral where they do note his Queen's Commendation for Brave Conduct.

The idea that he had an OBE appears to be wholly invented - why anybody would invent such a thing is baffling. It's so easy to check - which I did by checking all the honours lists from The London Gazette in every possible year.
Click to expand...


Two reasons: First, to attempt to lend additional credibility to his opinions (or purported opinions), and second, to attempt to shame skeptics into not criticizing those opinions. Of course, these tactics never work (at least not around here) but that doesn't stop CTs from trying.
 
Agatha said:
Braidwood was not awarded an OBE.
* * *
It's so easy to check - which I did by checking all the honours lists from The London Gazette in every possible year.
Click to expand...

SpitfireIX said:
Two reasons: First, to attempt to lend additional credibility to his opinions (or purported opinions), and second, to attempt to shame skeptics into not criticizing those opinions.
Click to expand...

Yes, it's the fallacious form of argument from authority. There is no alphabet soup of post nominals that transforms patently illogical reasoning (i.e., affirming the consequent) into cogency. Degrees, qualifications, certifications, and memberships are a proxy for demonstrable expertise for some purposes. But they are not a potion that transforms one's syllogism into one of validating form. An Oxford don who deploys a circular argument has still deployed a circular argument. The proper follow-up is not to allow it because the claimant is highly credentialed. It's to wonder why someone would do it who is presumed to know better. The argument is illogical because it's illogical.

No tapestry of royal decorations on one's breast makes what should by nature be an evidentiary argument into a convincing matter of expert judgment. No one is questioning Braidwood's bravery. It's just not relevant to the argument. The King himself could tell us that something is a perfect example of some category, but if all the other specimens of that category we can find are wholly dissimilar, then the King's proclamation has no evidentiary significance and remains unconvincing.

Vixen's respect for expertise is unsurprisingly fickle. She has no respect for the expertise of those who supported the JAIC investigation, and not much more for those carrying on the legitimate work today. She has no respect for the expertise of any of her critics here. She calls me "master engineer" (a term I've never self-applied), but she's using it here derisively. But she says we must somehow respect Margus Kurm and his cadre because Kurm was a prominent practitioner of an almost entirely irrelevant field. We must somehow respect a "German group of experts" hired by the shipyard.

Vixen claims Braidwood dived on the MS Estonia wreck, had an order of chivalry conferred upon him, and other things about him because she doesn't read her sources. I think this is also why she has such difficulty understanding why we see problems in newspaper reports. Serious researchers consider "sources" to lay foundations of fact and reasoning. Conspiracy theorists generally consider them to be black boxes whose mere citation ends an argument. Rather than things to be read, digested, understood, and reconciled with other sources, they're singular bludgeons used to bash one's critics over the head.

And that's why Vixen hammers selective on credentials and honors and the otherwise titular stature of her claimants. She can't actually address the content of her sources. Once we open the black box and peer inside, she's all at at sea (pun intended). The logical validity or factual veridity of the claims can't be a part of any argument she's able to make. It's back to, "You can't dispute these eminent people! You're just some bloke on the internet." She desperately needs to close that black box up again.
 
I've arranged to meet Ben in the Yorkshire Lass on Thursday. He's going to join our team for the quiz.
I'll show him the material in question and get his opinion before I show him Braidwood's report.
 
Maybe he secretly got the OBE for defusing the Rainbow Warrior bomb, but then the French secret Service planted another one. And it was all hushed up because they didn't want to sour Anglo-French relations.

I've heard that can happen: military specialists getting medals for hush-hush reasons. Do we know if anyone related to the Rainbow Warrior sinking got disappeared by the New Zealanders, for example?
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Maybe he secretly got the OBE for defusing the Rainbow Warrior bomb, but then the French secret Service planted another one. And it was all hushed up because they didn't want to sour Anglo-French relations.

I've heard that can happen: military specialists getting medals for hush-hush reasons.
Click to expand...


If that was the case, wouldn't it have been a VC?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom