Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

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the fact that you don't know this is concerning as this literally took me a minute. the most difficult part was deciding which site to post. i tried to choose sites that are less likely to be biased towards Israel...

https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live...r-10-13-23/h_65692c9ecb7e2e94320df83fdf30cfc7


https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blo...-expect-from-israels-ground-invasion-of-gaza/

Although AI also instances cases where it hasn't happened. Although I am always a little cautious about the accuracy of AI. I would certainly accept that in some (and perhaps most cases) Israel is issuing warnings.
https://www.amnestyusa.org/press-re...eli-attacks-wipe-out-entire-families-in-gaza/
 
Hamas is using terrorist tactics, no question. The Palestinians consider the existence of Israel itself to be pretty much a terroristic land grab of their own country, right? So the Palestinians kind of really want their country back, by any means necessary? Seems kinda irreconcilable.So what, even in theory, could resolve this? I mean, that doesn't require the Palestinians to shut the **** up and give away their land at the point of a sword. Which doesn't seem entirely a reasonable demand.

Officially, the solution is two states, side by side. But to the extent there have been attempts to get there, the more extreme factions of any side that gives anything, will try to destroy the proceess.

There have actually been some steps that have been progress. But also backward steps too.

If you think about how all the Arab countries were once fundamentally opposed to any recognition of Israel, this has changed when it comes to Egypt and Jordan. The former led to the assassination of the Egyptian President.

Then of course Yassir Arafat of all people actually ended up shaking hands with Yitzak Rabin, with that resulting in Rabin’s assassination.

Israel has given up land such as the Sinai and Gaza.

This shows to me that the solutions are not impossibly irreconcilable.

But what DOES make the situation more intractable is the religious claims on the land. Hamas, Hizbollah and Iran’s religious nutcases cannot be placated. Hamas have apparently made some claims that they will no longer demand the eradication of Israel, but as we can see those claims are worth nothing. For me this is like the claims by people like Front Natiaonle or the BNP that they are no longer racist. They don’t deserve any benefit of the doubt and we can see why.

Hamas has essentially proved that Israel’s security issues are real and that the walls and surveillance are necessary. This is a **** state of affairs for Gazans, of course. It makes me sick to see civilians in Gaza caught in the crossfire here.

At the same time, Israel needs to get rid of its own religious nutcases instead of bringing them into the government. They also have their idiotic fairy tales that lead them to claims that cannot be reconciled with a two-state solution. For that matter, arguably Likud’s own constitution makes it impossible to have a two-state solution so let’s hope that either Netanyahu is thrown out after this or someone with the authority to make a proper peace deal with the Palestinians can happen.
 
Two state is a pipe dream. Hamas won't secede. Israel won't be able to kill them. Not the leaders who are not even in Gaza. Netanyahu hopefully will be replaced, but only by someone very similar to him. Nobody does have a solution.
And there is still possibility of Hizballah stepping in, then Iran, then US.China attacks Taiwan the next day, North Korea attack Japan, nukes flying before Sunday.
 
Two state is a pipe dream. Hamas won't secede. Israel won't be able to kill them. Not the leaders who are not even in Gaza. Netanyahu hopefully will be replaced, but only by someone very similar to him. Nobody does have a solution.
And there is still possibility of Hizballah stepping in, then Iran, then US.China attacks Taiwan the next day, North Korea attack Japan, nukes flying before Sunday.

Well, okay then. But I think that only proves that attempting a two-state solution (as much as it may seem a pipe dream) is better than world war three.
 
At the same time, Israel needs to get rid of its own religious nutcases instead of bringing them into the government. They also have their idiotic fairy tales that lead them to claims that cannot be reconciled with a two-state solution.
How about this -- USA needs to get rid of its own religious nutcases instead of bringing them into the government. These American Christian fundamentalists and evangelicals also have their idiotic fairy tales that lead them to claims that cannot be reconciled with a two-state solution.
(i.e. -- Let's go ahead with a full-scale gog/magog, WW3 is prophesized, nukes and all, and the Jews will lead us all to rapture and everyone repents, and peace will reign on earth forever and ever, amen")
 
At the same time, Israel needs to get rid of its own religious nutcases instead of bringing them into the government. They also have their idiotic fairy tales that lead them to claims that cannot be reconciled with a two-state solution.
How about this -- USA needs to get rid of its own religious nutcases instead of bringing them into the government. These American Christian fundamentalists and evangelicals also have their idiotic fairy tales that lead them to claims that cannot be reconciled with a two-state solution.
(i.e. -- Let's go ahead with a full-scale gog/magog, WW3 is prophesized, nukes and all, and the Jews will lead us all to rapture and everyone repents, and peace will reign on earth forever and ever, amen")

No argument from me on that.
 
Islamofascism is clearly an irrational and violent ideology. "Rabid" is an apt metaphor.

They have clearly defined goals (Maximize power, destroy Israel) and construct somewhat sophisticated plans to provoke maximum carnage, in order to demonize and isolate Israel on the world stage, while terrorizing their own population into cowed submission. Sounds more like barbaric sociopathy than rabies to me.

It's weird how many atheists think a militant theocracy would be the worst thing ever, right up until some people Jews are actually fighting against one. Then suddenly it's "give militant theocracy a chance" and "can't we all just get along with militant theocracy"
Politics makes really strange bedfellows.
 
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Even a claim that any children have actually died.

I'd laugh if there wasn't a body bag of an obvious dead child in the lead photo.

The fact that you're trying to deny the existence of dead kids is a total giveaway. I didn't need the confirmation, but thanks anyway.
 
I'd laugh if there wasn't a body bag of an obvious dead child in the lead photo.

There was no photo when I followed your link. Only text.

The fact that you're trying to deny the existence of dead kids is a total giveaway. I didn't need the confirmation, but thanks anyway.

You need some lessons in reading comprehension. I never denied that any children died. But that wasn't the claim, which was about intention. And your link doesn't support your claim.
 
That's the really ironic part - signalling an invasion allows Hamas to scarper, leaving the civilians to face the heroic IDF.

If it gets Hamas out of Gaza, that would be a good thing, no?

At the end of this argument, the Palestinian woman says, "Free Palestine!" to which the American woman, supporting Israel, says, "Free Palestine from Hamas, absolutely."



I have to agree. Hamas are a roadblock to any peaceful solution.

I think any claim that could ever be trusted was always laughable at best, but in the face of their sick atrocities on October 7th, eradicating them as a force is entirely justified.
 
theatheist asserts - The fact that you're trying to deny the existence of dead kids is a total giveaway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Egipqa0ZhUk
Hamas' Head of Political and International Relations told Sky News that no civilians have been killed by them.
(2-million have viewed this lie)

"We know they are lying. They know they are lying. They know we know they are lying. We know that they know we know they are lying. And still they continue to lie." -- Alexander Solženitsyn
 
The Atheist, could you get rid of that avatar? The whole “LOL! Look at the way you Jews are the new Nazis!” jibe looks bad.
 
Uh, no. That initial response is completely normal even if they aren't responsible. Because of the fog of war, it's always possible that the IDF did something that command isn't aware of. They really don't want to deny something and then have it proven that they did it, even accidentally, so before they deny something they investigate to see what happened. It's only after they can establish that it wasn't them do they issue a denial.

This is a report of an independent review by 'experts'. They seem to agree that the pattern of injuries and damage seen in videos make an IED such as Hamas would use unlikely as an explanation for the event. They do say it is most likely this pattern of damage and injury would be the result of a precision missile such as used by Israel.

The FT also points out the denial issued by the IDF is actually about a different even near on the same day.

https://www.ft.com/content/95c5fcf1-c756-415f-85b8-1e4bbff24736

If you can find a better analysis please share.
 
Before people make an argument about Hamas, I wish they would decide whether they consider it the government of Gaza legotomized by elections and thus a state actor one can negotiate with,

Or

a terrorist group of basically animals who needs to get exterminated.

Because there is a lot of mixing up of the two, whenever convenient, going on here.
 
I don't have better figures, which is why I'm not making any arguments based on casualty figures in Gaza. But that doesn't make your figures any good. They aren't. They're garbage propaganda.

The IDF figures may be propoganda but they are all we have for the number of active service Israeli military killed by Hamas. I am inclined to believe them, you can choose to think IDF figures are just propaganda.

The Washington post points out Gaza health ministry casualty figures have always been accurate in the past including during previous conflicts, and have been validated in the past. The current situation makes it difficult to independently verify figures.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-toll-palestinian-health-ministry/

So I am prepared to accept these figures. Especially as they separate out 'missing' individuals whose bodies have not been recovered into a separate group.
 
Before people make an argument about Hamas, I wish they would decide whether they consider it the government of Gaza legotomized by elections and thus a state actor one can negotiate with,

Or

a terrorist group of basically animals who needs to get exterminated.

Because there is a lot of mixing up of the two, whenever convenient, going on here.

You can attempt negotiations with both. There are lots of examples of successful negotiations with terrorists. Many of which then became legitimate politicians. That would include many of the founder politicians of israel who started out as terrorists.

(See also ANC, IRA, PLO, Irgun, Zanu-PF etc.)
 
You can attempt negotiations with both. There are lots of examples of successful negotiations with terrorists. Many of which then became legitimate politicians. That would include many of the founder politicians of israel who started out as terrorists.

(See also ANC, IRA, PLO, Irgun, Zanu-PF etc.)


And yet, pretty much no one has proposed to negotiate with Hamas directly.
 
Before people make an argument about Hamas, I wish they would decide whether they consider it the government of Gaza legotomized by elections and thus a state actor one can negotiate with,

Or

a terrorist group of basically animals who needs to get exterminated.

Because there is a lot of mixing up of the two, whenever convenient, going on here.

Hamas is not legitimate by any normal metric.

They were elected in 2006. Then, there was an ill-advised attempt at a coup by Fatah.

But there have been no elections since, and this month's behaviour was psychopathic on a level not far off from what ISIS did. So, no. Not worth considered a legitimate state entity.
 
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