Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

[lobosrul5]

i.e., Israel surrenders. I'm sure hamas will never do this again after Israel follows your suggestions. after a massacre of 1400 (have you heard the accounts of the videos Israel shared?) and you suggest more armed guards, investigations and some targeted killings? seriously? yep terrorism works.

No country in the world would follow your suggestions. and no one would ask them to, unless its about Israel of course. I don't recall similar suggestions for the US response to 911 where close to 1M Iraqi/Afgan civilians were killed or Black September where 1000's of Palestinians were killed and over 20k were fled/expelled. When ISIS burned a Jordanian pilot king Hussein offered to join the fight himself. ISIS was bombed from the air. did any civilians die? did the UN talk about the burning of the pilot as not having "occurred in a vacuum"?

The hypocrisy and cynicism really has almost no bounds. Terrorist attack on us: we're getting medieval on your ass. Terrorist attack on Israel: ITS FOR THEM TO DEAL WITH and they better to do it with the utmost in humanity cause of some lines drawn on a map 75 years ago.

 

[Jedi]

If Hamas kills one civilian, it is a murder. If Israel kills one civilian, it's also a murder. Being hypocrite isn't some extra sin, not compared to a murder. But it may be a fact.
All the result of this all might be just that. A disillusion. That Israel is just another Middle East religious state, with just the same medieval ethics.

so self defense is also murder? targeting civilians is murder. Israel doesn't do that.

Israel is not a religious state. there is free speech and freedom of religion. the supreme court is very far on the left with a Muslim justice. you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Nessie]

i.e., Israel surrenders. I'm sure hamas will never do this again after Israel follows your suggestions. after a massacre of 1400 (have you heard the accounts of the videos Israel shared?) and you suggest more armed guards, investigations and some targeted killings? seriously? yep terrorism works.

No country in the world would follow your suggestions. and no one would ask them to, unless its about Israel of course. I don't recall similar suggestions for the US response to 911 where close to 1M Iraqi/Afgan civilians were killed or Black September where 1000's of Palestinians were killed and over 20k were fled/expelled. When ISIS burned a Jordanian pilot king Hussein offered to join the fight himself. ISIS was bombed from the air. did any civilians die? did the UN talk about the burning of the pilot as not having "occurred in a vacuum"?

Israel is already one of the most heavily defended countries in the world and they have used targetted killings of terrorists.

The US response to 9/11 included beefing up airport security and to target individuals, of which the best known was Osama bin Laden.

Invading Afghanistan was a huge mistake. Attacking Gaza is the same mistake.

 

[theprestige]

An improvement in intelligence gathering and defences to prevent such from happening again. So, more armed guards for settlements and any events near the Gaza border.

Why? You don't prescribe the same approach to Hamas, in response to Israeli oppression.

An investigation to identify those specifically responsible. That should be on an individual level and in terms of organisation and its leadership. The aim being to arrest and hold those people to account, with an absolute minimal risk to non-combatants. Or, as has been done in the past, targetted killing of combatants, which could be weeks, months or even years later.

Why? You don't prescribe the same approach to Hamas, in response to Israeli attacks.

Negotiations to prevent an escalation of the violence.

Why? You don't prescribe the same approach to Hamas.

Your prescription is that Hamas gets to wage unrestricted terrorist warfare on Israel, but Israel is not allowed to wage war in response.

You ask where it is that you say you are pro Hamas. I answer, right here.

 

[theprestige]

Israel is already one of the most heavily defended countries in the world and they have used targetted killings of terrorists.

The US response to 9/11 included beefing up airport security and to target individuals, of which the best known was Osama bin Laden.

Invading Afghanistan was a huge mistake. Attacking Gaza is the same mistake.

The Taliban was harboring Bin Laden. Your precious "target individuals" wouldn't work without going into Afghanistan to get him. You want to give terrorists every advantage of unrestricted warfare, while giving their victims every constraint of criminal justice you can imagine.

You ask where you say you are pro Hamas. I answer, right here.

 

[The Atheist]

At what point will people here who are 100% behind Israel think that Israel is overdoing it? Especially in the light that Israel will probably not be any safer when it is over?

There is no number that will turn them. That should be obvious already.

 

[Ziggurat]

Invading Afghanistan was a huge mistake. Attacking Gaza is the same mistake.

Perhaps you are right.

One of the problems with invading Afghanistan is that Al Qaeda could and did flee to Pakistan. We should have invaded Pakistan.

Likewise, Hamas leadership is in Qatar, and is supported by Iran. That's who Israel should invade.

I like the cut of your jib, thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Ziggurat]

There is no number that will turn them. That should be obvious already.

There is no number of dead Israelis that would get you to accept war against Hamas.

Which is why Israel should and will ignore your objections.

 

[Jedi]

Israel has boxed Hamas literally in to a corner in Gaza, such that any attempt to fight back can be condemned as terrorism and/or hiding behind civilians.

Israel has no interest in a negotiated settlement, that means a nation state for the Palestinians co-existing with Israel.

of course Israel wants a negotiated settlement. Didn't they offer to return 97% at camp david under clinton? right after the 6 day war when Israel captured the w bank, they offered to return it in exchange for peace. this was flatly rejected. What has hamas offered? hamas is the side that won't negotiate and wants Israel (and all Jews) killed. I'm not sure what planet you're living on

Hamas cannot be defeated militarily. Even if this action greatly weakens them, it will have also served to recruit a new set of fighters.

seemed to have worked with ISIS and the nazis. there is no choice here.

So the circle of violence will continue.

there is no 'circle of violence' there are terrorist attacks that Israel responds to.

 

[Nessie]

Why? You don't prescribe the same approach to Hamas, in response to Israeli oppression.


Why? You don't prescribe the same approach to Hamas, in response to Israeli attacks.


Why? You don't prescribe the same approach to Hamas.

Your prescription is that Hamas gets to wage unrestricted terrorist warfare on Israel, but Israel is not allowed to wage war in response.

You ask where it is that you say you are pro Hamas. I answer, right here.

Hamas are terrorists and their organisation needs defeating. Some say that can be done militarily, but that is yet to be seen and a lot of civilians are already dying. There are lots of world examples of large armies taking on smaller groups of fighters and losing. Whilst that happens, lots of innocents die. Vietnam, Afghanistan, Northern Ireland.

I am arguing for a more targeted and multi-strategy attack, that includes actions such as better defences. Imagine if, when Hamas had attacked, the majority had been killed or captured. That would have been a huge victory for Israel.

If the US response to 9/11 was just improved security so no more attacks and targetted attacks on those responsible, the disaster that was Afghanistan would have been avoided. Invading Afghanistan did not make the US safer. Airport security checks and killing bin Laden did.

 

[The Atheist]

There is no number of dead Israelis that would get you to accept war against Hamas.

Typically feeble and logically fallacious response.

I have no problem with war against Hamas. It's what people like you laughingly refer to as "collateral damage" - or as I and many others put it, murder of children and civilians, I have a problem with.

 

[Nessie]

Perhaps you are right.

One of the problems with invading Afghanistan is that Al Qaeda could and did flee to Pakistan. We should have invaded Pakistan.

Likewise, Hamas leadership is in Qatar, and is supported by Iran. That's who Israel should invade.

I like the cut of your jib, thanks for the suggestion.

Some dead Hamas leaders in Qatar, as well as Gaza, would go a long way to destroying them as an organisation. A lot of Palestinians would appreciate Hamas being removed.

 

[Jedi]

"If I could tell the rabid dog to calm down and stop biting people, I would. But it's a rabid dog. Trying to reason with it, trying to appeal to its humanity would be madness. That's why I focus my efforts on trying to dissuade the man with the rifle who intends to put it down. Because he's a rational human being that might actually stop and listen to what I'm saying."

apologies, i'm not recognizing sarcasm today, with the latest videos and all...

 

[JoeMorgue]

Okay but again we keep looping back to "I shall graciously allow Israel to retaliate against a terrorist state that has openly declared their intent to wipe Israel off the map but only if they do it in ways guaranteed not to win."

"You can fight terrorist but only if you can do it with zero collateral damage" is going "Terrorist wins."

That's why terrorist ARE terrorists. So you can't defeat WITHOUT hurting civilians because they hide INSIDE the civilian population.

Again the argument basically is "Well Terrorism is just a valid tactic that works because the other side isn't allowed to do anything to stop it because they'll lose the moral high ground."

//Again as I said earlier you could fairly that "terrorist" isn't exactly the right term and something like or akin to "insurgent" might be better but I think that's needlessly nitpicky semantics, but I am knowledge the possible valid distinction here//

 

[lobosrul5]

Some dead Hamas leaders in Qatar, as well as Gaza, would go a long way to destroying them as an organisation. A lot of Palestinians would appreciate Hamas being removed.

Are you OKing IDF strikes in Qatar

 

[The Atheist]

No, Israel isn't deliberately killing children.

https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-rele...n-war-being-used-against-gaza-civilians-oxfam

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

But only AFTER they surrendered. AFTER they made peace. Not as a precondition for peace. Peace must come before rebuilding, and victory must come before peace.



Not before Hamas is defeated, it cannot.

And how many times has Israel defeated the various Palestinian uprisings?

How often has their method for ensuring peace after worked?

Sure, they will win. Israel is by far the stronger party and Hamas did something evil and need to be punished.

And they will be.

And then? A devastated Gaza, and probably seriously damaged West Bank/South Lebanon.

Who will need a LOT of aid and someone to prevent utter anarchy.

There are enough rich parties willing to give that aid. Iran. Certain members of Saudi Arabia. Or the Gulf States. Turkey even. Maybe some help from Pakistan.
If you're starving and living in ruins, any aid is better than none.

I suggest it better be Israel and generously, lest that aid be used to fund Hamas 2.0, because that is the other option.

 

[Ziggurat]

No, Israel isn't deliberately killing children.

https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-rele...n-war-being-used-against-gaza-civilians-oxfam

You know what your link doesn't contain?

Even a claim that any children have actually died.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Wow it's almost as if "Palestinian" isn't a thing and every time Israel defeats them a bunch more people from the neighboring Islamic countries that all totally want Israel wiped off the face of the Earth are sent in or something crazy like that.

 

[Jedi]

Israel is already one of the most heavily defended countries in the world and they have used targetted killings of terrorists.

yes, and we still have hamas. your point?

The US response to 9/11 included beefing up airport security and to target individuals, of which the best known was Osama bin Laden.

yes, Israel will beef up security and target hamas leaders (already doing both). your point?

Invading Afghanistan was a huge mistake. Attacking Gaza is the same mistake.

the point of my comment was to show that these concerns are only brought up when Israel does it. I don't recall the world complaining about civilian deaths or incessantly lecturing the US to make sure to not commit war crimes in afganistan, assuming with no proof that that was what the US is going to do.