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Cont: Transwomen are not women - part 13

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The issue with restricting limitations to trans sports to the elite level is the removal of incentive for women to train at all levels below elite.
A blanket ban would fix this for the weaker sex.
 
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TurkeysGhost said:
It would be silly to attribute such a groundswell of anti-trans sentiment in the UK to any one person. Rowling's liberal-feminist coded bigotry is merely representative of a larger social trend occurring on TERF island, which is undergoing a nasty right wing swing into extreme austerity and bitterness generally.
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This really is your argument in a nutshell; that by not blindly going along with the TRA viewpoint, the evil TERFs run the risk of becoming, gasp, conservatives! They're going to become contaminated with Republican or Tory cooties. It might happen, but I suspect not simply because the tide is very much turning. When the top Labour leader says that a woman is an adult human female, the TRAs are clearly on the back foot.
 
Hey kid, you're gonna need puberty blockers followed by cross-sex hormones followed by any number of surgeries but the good news is your condition is “not a mental disorder.”

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
 
Jennifer Bilek is back.
The synthetic sex industry.
Follow the money.
Why was there nothing 50 years ago?
I totally disagree with London John. It will be fascinating to see if the experts revise their ideas that "God" got everything just right designing the intricate body, but then stuck the wrong brain in the skull.

The experts evolved alongside the industry, there is money to be made. Lots of it.
 
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LondonJohn said:
Which is why transgender identity is here to stay (unless/until mainstream medicine changes its view on the matter, which I'd judge as extremely unlikely). It's up to legislatures, judiciaries, experts and the general public to work out - in a fair and proportionate manner - exactly how (and how far) transgender rights are protected/provided in areas where they come into potential conflict with the rights of other groups in society (including, but not limited to, cis women in general, cis elite sportswomen, and cis lesbians). I fully expect this to happen over the next decade or two. I also fully expect further iterations in the therapies provided to transgender people (especially transgender minors and minors presenting with GD) over the next decade or so.

And I confidently predict that extremists on both sides will find themselves marginalised in favour of a consensus that's workable and as respectful as possible to all interested parties.
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So not dissimilar to the status quo that prevailed before the TRAs started making their unreasonable demands, with a few extra accommodations which would probably have gradually happened anyway. So a delay of a decade or so in reaching that position, due to TRAs. Sounds about right.
 
Interesting story over at Pink News:
For Women Scotland, a group which claims to represent women and children’s rights, wrote to the NEC chair urging them to pull Roberts from the all-women shortlist.

The letter, signed by For Women Scotland director Trina Budge, describes Roberts as “male” and insists she is “not eligible for a place on an all-woman shortlist” because she doesn’t have a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC). It also refers to Roberts as “he” instead of “she”.

Speaking to PinkNews, Roberts said it was “false” to suggest that she is not a woman because she does not yet have a GRC.

“I am female. It’s legally recognised – it’s just not on my birth certificate yet,” Roberts said.​
This is all somewhat foreign to my experience, since we don't have all-woman shortlists here in the U.S. but I do find myself wondering what the term "female" means to Ms. Roberts. Presumably not the same as what I mean by it, which has much more to do with what sorts of birth control you'd seek out upon coming of age rather than matters relating to one's social role, outward appearance, etc.
 
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LondonJohn said:
There are substantive and substantial differences though.

To take your example of NAMBLA: they are advocating for something which a) is viewed as a mental disorder by modern mainstream medicine, and b) is criminalised by all progressive legislatures.

To take the example of transgender people: they are a group whose identity a) is viewed as valid (ie not a mental disorder) by modern mainstream medicine, and b) is protected by law in most progressive legislatures.
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Achooalleee... Pedophilia is not, by itself, considered a mental disorder by modern mainstream medicine. Pedophilic Disorder, however, is. There are criteria related to that specific disorder that must be met, and not all people who are attracted to children would meet those criteria. Additionally, pedophilia is only considered a disorder at all in modern times because of the social view toward sex with children. And there are organizations representing "MAPs" that are actively trying to change that social view.

This is a very strong parallel to transgenderism. There IS a mental disorder that is associated with transgenderism - gender dysphoria is still a diagnosis, as is autogynephilia. Both are associated with what people currently consider to be transgenderism. And here's the real kick in the pants - the only reason that transgenderism is under consideration in this discussion at all is because of organizations that actively engaged in trying to change social views of transgenderism.

The only material difference between your "principled" argument in support of transgenderism is the success that those organizations have had. And I'll also note that the success has been gained by intentionally bypassing the public view, latching on to unrelated causes, and by lobbying government agencies while actively excluding the views of females from consideration.

There is no reason at all to believe that the exact same thing could not happen with pedophilia. Your entire argument is based on the imagined authority of the DSM as well as the highly selective actions of a handful of government entities.

If the various MAP organizations are successful in changing the views of governments, and destigmatizing pedophilia... will you alter your position and become a full-fledged supported of MAPs? Will you begin calling those of us who place the wellbeing of children above the sexual desires of (almost exclusively) males "bigots" and "MAPphobes"? Will you come up with a clever acronym with which to insult those who do not immediately accept pedophiles as a "natural variation" o the human condition?

LondonJohn said:
Which is why transgender identity is here to stay (unless/until mainstream medicine changes its view on the matter, which I'd judge as extremely unlikely).
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Totally why lobotomies, hysterectomies to control depression, and diagnoses of ritual satanic child abuse are here to stay too. Yep. Makes perfect sense.

Apparently, whatever the psychological community latches on to as it's newest toy is 100% right and cannot be questioned. I mean, who would dare challenge the view of a field with such a stellar history of perfectly appropriate treatments?
 
d4m10n said:
Hey kid, you're gonna need puberty blockers followed by cross-sex hormones followed by any number of surgeries but the good news is your condition is “not a mental disorder.”

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
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Aw buddy, you missed the clincher!

Hey kid, in order for you to have a stable mental outlook and be happy, you're gonna need puberty blockers followed by cross-sex hormones followed by any number of surgeries but the good news is your condition is “not a mental disorder.”
 
Brainster said:
This really is your argument in a nutshell; that by not blindly going along with the TRA viewpoint, the evil TERFs run the risk of becoming, gasp, conservatives! They're going to become contaminated with Republican or Tory cooties. It might happen, but I suspect not simply because the tide is very much turning. When the top Labour leader says that a woman is an adult human female, the TRAs are clearly on the back foot.
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No, I'm saying even totally removing the trans "question" from the equation, it's quite obvious that the UK is going through a really nasty reactionary swing.
 
The UK certainly went through a nasty reactionary swing a few years ago, hence Brexit, but it's been swinging back for quite a while. Labour are currently about 20% ahead of the Tories in the polls.
 
Pixel42 said:
The UK certainly went through a nasty reactionary swing a few years ago, hence Brexit, but it's been swinging back for quite a while. Labour are currently about 20% ahead of the Tories in the polls.
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Labour seems to think their only path to victory is by also swinging hard to the right. Diet Tories vs Tories hardly seems like much of a choice.
 
Pixel42 said:
The UK certainly went through a nasty reactionary swing a few years ago, hence Brexit, but it's been swinging back for quite a while. Labour are currently about 20% ahead of the Tories in the polls.
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Not in terms of LGBT people, it has certainly got worse again, nothing like it used to be of course but it is still worse than even 5 years ago.
 
theprestige said:
Worse in what way(s)?
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Low level abuse feels as if it is up again to many of us. Actual hate crime statistics which report the reported crimes as classified by the police show something like a 100% rise over the last 5 years (that is even when hate crimes against the T are not taken into account). If I recall correctly the last 12 months showed a reduction for the first time in many years but that could be because people are becoming (again) concerned about reporting hate crimes. Especially when you consider victim support charities are claiming a large increase in people reaching out for help.
 
Darat said:
Low level abuse feels as if it is up again to many of us. Actual hate crime statistics which report the reported crimes as classified by the police show something like a 100% rise over the last 5 years (that is even when hate crimes against the T are not taken into account). If I recall correctly the last 12 months showed a reduction for the first time in many years but that could be because people are becoming (again) concerned about reporting hate crimes. Especially when you consider victim support charities are claiming a large increase in people reaching out for help.
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Thanks. That sounds awful.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Hey kid, in order for you to have a stable mental outlook and be happy, you're gonna need puberty blockers followed by cross-sex hormones followed by any number of surgeries but the good news is your condition is “not a mental disorder.”
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Fair enough.

It is truly spectacular to see anyone arguing that all of these medical interventions are necessary while at the same time arguing that nothing is remotely disordered or pathological in the patients who need to have them for their own well being.

If we were talking about adults going in for totally elective surgeries, well, "my body my choice" and all that, but we're talking about people young enough to not understand romantic attraction or sexual climax from a firsthand perspective.
 
d4m10n said:
Fair enough.

It is truly spectacular to see anyone arguing that all of these medical interventions are necessary while at the same time arguing that nothing is remotely disordered or pathological in the patients who need to have them for their own well being.

If we were talking about adults going in for totally elective surgeries, well, "my body my choice" and all that, but we're talking about people young enough to not understand romantic attraction or sexual climax from a firsthand perspective.
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Bertrand Russel got to age 96 and said Ah, at last free of the sexual urge.
These kids are spared all that suffering.
 
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