Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

[Beelzebuddy]

What IS this?

**** if I know. I just want everyone to stop murdering civilians. Apparently that makes me a Hamas fanboy because the right kind of civilians aren't being murdered enough.

 

[JoeMorgue]

**** if I know. I just want everyone to stop murdering civilians. Apparently that makes me a Hamas fanboy because the right kind of civilians aren't being murdered enough.

YES BECAUSE YOU'RE ONLY TALKING ABOUT ONE SIDE DOING IT!

What makes you a Hamas fanboy is your continued Hamas Fanboying.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Then you need to put the USA on that list of failing countries. And pretty much every other country in the world.

I'm not saying attacks can always be prevented, what I'm saying is that they can always be responded to. Rockets across a border is going to trigger a significant response from most any country. Not responding would be a mistake.

Terrorism even on the scale of the recent Hamas atrocity has zero chance of ending the existence of Israel, like the 9/11 terrorist attack had zero chance of ending the existence of the USA.

If a response is made. If a country --any country-- lets attacks (whether you class them as terrorists or other states) occur without response then those attacks will continue, and increase, until that country falls apart.

Until we have a complete surveillance society terrorists will always be able to threaten the citizens of a country.

And until you eliminate terrorists they will keep on terrorizing. You may not be able to prevent all threats, but that doesn't mean you should avoid eliminating the ones you can. You do the best you can with the tools you have, you don't sit around and do nothing because you aren't a god capable of achieving a perfect solution forever.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Not in the slightest.

An existential threat to Hamas, and any Palestinians who murder peaceful Israelis.

How about Egypt and Jordan, who refuse to take in any Palestinian refugees.

The rest of the Arab world is an existential threat to the Palestinians, if the Arab world doesn't give a **** about the Palestinians, why should Israel?

I'm not so sure it's a matter of the Arab world not giving a ****. There was, for instance, this time when Palestinian militants migrated into Jordan, repeatedly disrespected the laws there, tried to take control of the country, and made several attempts to assassinate the ruling family. One gets, in fact, the very strong impression that a fair few countries in the region hold a degree of animosity toward the Palestinians. Given, for example, that Lebanon and a number of others have not merely refused citizenship to large numbers of Palestinian refugees, some of whom have been in these places for decades. But actively denied them things like health care, education.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

a general observation, if I may.

I'm getting a lot of hate here for only being 99% in line with everyone else.

This is very much a "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912" situation.

Maybe people can keep in mind that I am not actually in favor of Hamas killing every Jews?
And if you think I do, that's your projection and not based in anything I every said?

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"

Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

 

[JoeMorgue]

The fact that none of the surrounding Muslim countries seem to want any Palestinians is yet another thing we just have to not notice and "why does it matter" and all that.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

The fact that none of the surrounding Muslim countries seem to want any Palestinians is yet another thing we just have to not notice and "why does it matter" and all that.

but the fact is that it is a fact.
complaining about it doesn't change it.

 

[aniri]

yes, and you mentioned exactly 1 source : your union.

that is not "numerous" by any definition.

That is availability bias at work.

I mentioned various other organizations and facebook. In fact, just a few minutes ago I received a message from a certain foundation (70 million of members according to their website), which calls Gaza a 'walled kindergarten' - somehow forgetting to mention that this 'kindergarten' keeps bombarding Israel with rockets.


And my union is not restricted to one institution: it has a national scale and comprises over 120000 members. Plus I was only talking about my personal experience, which is just a random example. Other people can tell you about their experiences. Plus - as I said - there is plenty of informaiton in open sources.

 

[TragicMonkey]

but the fact is that it is a fact.
complaining about it doesn't change it.

But it is a significant fact because it removes potential solutions to the problem of Palestinians. "Relocate" would be a very nice option to have on the table when the other options are "Die" and "Live Wretchedly". Some solutions are better than others, the wider an array of options the better the chances of picking a good one.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

YES BECAUSE YOU'RE ONLY TALKING ABOUT ONE SIDE DOING IT!

Well, only one side needs me talking about it. Do you think the rest of this thread needs further convincing of Hamas's atrocities? The issue I have is when people take the next step, and start intimating that because of Hamas's atrocities a little ethnic cleansing of their own is justified in return.

What sort of kabuki bothsidesism would you like to see from me, to convince you that yes I think Hamas are bad guys as well? Calling them ◊◊◊◊◊◊* insane fundie terrorists crippled by their inability to set their hateful ideology aside long enough to normalize relationships with other governments isn't enough for you?

The fact that none of the surrounding Muslim countries seem to want any Palestinians is yet another thing we just have to not notice and "why does it matter" and all that.

Gosh it's almost as if it's less about religion than everyone seems to want.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Well, only one side needs me talking about it. Do you think the rest of this thread needs further convincing of Hamas's atrocities?

Well since Hamas atrocities are being called "justified for living under apartheid" I'd say yes.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Well since Hamas atrocities are being called "justified for living under apartheid" I'd say yes.

Is that the consensus of the thread? Is that your opinion? Then I'd say you're wrong.

You wanna go knock down strawmen together? That sounds fun. Ask me what I think about beheading babies next.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Okay.

Israel. Land area: 8,550 square miles.
Population: ~9,700,000
Breakdown: ~7,100,000 Jewish people and ~2,000,000 million Muslims. (There's roughly 500-600 thousand "various" to make up the difference.)

Now let's look at the countries that border it.

Egypt. Land Area: 387,000 square miles.
Population ~109 million.
Breakdown: 87% Muslim, 13% Christian, less than .003 Ba'hai, about 500 Jews.

Lebanon. Land Area: 4,000 square miles.
Population ~5,450,000.
Breakdown: 54% Muslim, 35% Christian, 5% Druze, and a small smattered of "other." I cannot find a firm number of Jews outside of vague references to a "very small number of Jews, Hindu's, and Buddhist."

Jordan. Land Area: 34,500 square miles.
Population ~11,800,000.
Breakdown: 97.2% Muslim. 2.1% Christian. No Jewish citizens.

Syria. Land Area: 71,500 square miles.
Population ~20,380,00.
Breakdown: 84% Muslim. 10% Christian. 3% Druze. No Jewish citizens.

That's what I'm talking about. That's what I find absurd.

That's what I'm saying when I cannot in good faith honestly believe that anyone is looking at THAT situation and going "Yep obviously the solution is the tiny Jewish country has to be the the one to give up more land to Muslims. Yep look at those numbers that makes perfect sense."

Nobody, not nobody, can look me in the eyes and tell me that just those directly boarding countries (to say nothing of the broader Middle East) couldn't more easily assimilate ~2 million people who already speak their language, share their religion, are from the same ethnic groups, then Israel could.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Is that the consensus of the thread? Is that your opinion? Then I'd say you're wrong.

You wanna go knock down strawmen together? That sounds fun. Ask me what I think about beheading babies next.

That opinion has been stated by people in this thread, yes. I dunno know what else you think I have to prove to you. Did the same "It's a threat but not an existential threat" goal posts move again?

I'm sorry "Strawman" was on your word of the day calendar but not every opinion that disagrees with you is one.

And also "Oh come on. They just murdered the babies, they didn't behead them!" *Thumbs up* Great argument. You really came across good there.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

And how much should Israel pay each Palestinian for seeking their fortune elsewhere?

 

[JoeMorgue]

And how much should Israel pay each Palestinian for seeking their fortune elsewhere?

The exact same amount every refugee coming into America is given by the country they are leaving.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Okay.

Israel. Land area: 8,550 square miles.
Population: ~9,700,000
Breakdown: ~7,100,000 Jewish people and ~2,000,000 million Muslims. (There's roughly 500-600 thousand "various" to make up the difference.)

Now let's look at the countries that border it.

Egypt. Land Area: 387,000 square miles.
Population ~109 million.
Breakdown: 87% Muslim, 13% Christian, less than .003 Ba'hai, about 500 Jews.

Lebanon. Land Area: 4,000 square miles.
Population ~5,450,000.
Breakdown: 54% Muslim, 35% Christian, 5% Druze, and a small smattered of "other." I cannot find a firm number of Jews outside of vague references to a "very small number of Jews, Hindu's, and Buddhist."

Jordan. Land Area: 34,500 square miles.
Population ~11,800,000.
Breakdown: 97.2% Muslim. 2.1% Christian. No Jewish citizens.

Syria. Land Area: 71,500 square miles.
Population ~20,380,00.
Breakdown: 84% Muslim. 10% Christian. 3% Druze. No Jewish citizens.

That's what I'm talking about. That's what I find absurd.

That's what I'm saying when I cannot in good faith honestly believe that anyone is looking at THAT situation and going "Yep obviously the solution is the tiny Jewish country has to be the the one to give up more land to Muslims. Yep look at those numbers that makes perfect sense."

Nobody, not nobody, can look me in the eyes and tell me that just those directly boarding countries (to say nothing of the broader Middle East) couldn't more easily assimilate ~2 million people who already speak their language, share their religion, are from the same ethnic groups, then Israel could.

I hate whataboutism! I hate first principles! I hate arguments using religion!

But from first principles, whatabout all these other Muslim countries what could step in?

I tease, of course. Genuinely though, if you want Egypt or whoever to build a New Palestine to hold Israel's undesirables, Israel's going to have to pay Egypt or whoever for it. No one is going to lift much of a finger otherwise. That's just how the world works. Dolla dolla bills, ya'll. Yes, if Israel keeps pushing I'm sure what Gazans are left will wind up as refugees for free, but take a look at the kind of oppressive behavior that causes such displacements and understand that's what Israel is knowingly signing up for.

[ETA] Actually, if you even want to make that argument you should list countries by arable land. We are talking about a desert region here after all. If room is all you care about there's plenty of sand within Israel as well.

 

[Ziggurat]

Gosh it's almost as if it's less about religion than everyone seems to want.

Your conclusion doesn't follow. Muslims are not homogeneous in their religion. The fact that most of Israel's neighbors aren't really into waging religious wars against Israel doesn't mean that Hamas's war isn't religiously motivated. It just means that those other countries aren't radicalized like Hamas is. Hamas constantly tells us that they are motivated by religion. Why would you doubt them?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

The exact same amount every refugee coming into America is given by the country they are leaving.

That implies that Palestinians are persecuted by the State of Israel and would be risking their lives if they stayed.


Is that your position?

 

[Darat]

...snip...

Who has said a country shouldn't react to attacks? This thread of the discussion is about whether Hamas represents an existential threat to Israel or not.

I'm firmly on the not side, Hamas has nothing like the capacity to do more than they have done, and what they've recently done is the worse they will ever be able to do.

They are no more a threat to the existence of Israel than the 9/11 terrorists were to the existence of the USA.

...snip...
And until you eliminate terrorists they will keep on terrorizing. You may not be able to prevent all threats, but that doesn't mean you should avoid eliminating the ones you can. You do the best you can with the tools you have, you don't sit around and do nothing because you aren't a god capable of achieving a perfect solution forever.

Again who has said you do nothing? That's a complete and utter strawman.

One way of eliminating terrorists is to remove the support from the community they come from, which can be done, it's often been done and it's been done without eliminating that community.