Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

[pipelineaudio]

Agreed, no rockets is the correct choice.

That means Palestinians should just accept they are second class citizens, to be ruled over by Israel and never fight back. They should be meek and just accept appalling conditions in Gaza as their lot in life.

But, if Palestinians should accept they cannot fight back, then no one is allowed to fight for a homeland. You cannot make rules for one group that means they cannot fight repression and the basic right to have somewhere they can call their national home.

Should the hawaiians fire rockets into neighborhoods full of canadians, americans, red chinese and other foreign investors? Or should we continue to passively resist your occupation?

 

[JoeMorgue]

It's 2023. "Everybody go back where you came from" is neither logically and practically possible nor the solution we should actually be aiming for.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Should the hawaiians fire rockets into neighborhoods full of canadians, americans, red chinese and other foreign investors? Or should we continue to passively resist your occupation?

Clearly you should fire rockets at the mainland Chinese, but the others are innocent and angelic. Duh. (Well, maybe you should find out which political party the Americans support, that might change things.)

 

[dudalb]

Why are they indistinguishable from terrorists?

1 - Palestine is not a country, that can claim it is defending itself, when Israel seizes land.
2 - By not being an internationally recognised country, they cannot have a what would be recognised as a uniformed army.

Theoretically, Hamas could organise themselves as an army, get uniforms etc, but the Israelis would then condemn that as an act of war. Israel has manoeuvred the Palestinians, literally into a corner, where anything they do, except do nothing, is easily condemned.

Hamas then also do what terrorists do, by attacking civilians, kidnapping, bombing and installing fear. Actual armies have also done the same. The lines are not clearly defined and people will forgive and condemn depending on their politics and sympathies.

The Hamas leadership are evil, violent men. Their choice is to roll over and accept Israeli control and **** lives for Palestinians, or be evil, violent men. Israel has failed to give them a way out, they have trapped them, with what they see as no option.

The answer is to legitimise Hamas, or another authoritative group, talk to them and allow a Palestinian country that is not just left with the scraps.

You want to leitmase people who take hostages, slughter civilians, and kill babies.
Nice.

 

[dudalb]

I am a little disgusted. by the number of people in this forum who are openly trying to justify/excuse what HAMAS did.
Including people I really thought knew better.
But I forget that when it comes to making people do really stupid and ouirageous things, religion has nothing on political ideology.

 

[dudalb]

It's 2023. "Everybody go back where you came from" is neither logically and practically possible nor the solution we should actually be aiming for.

That is why I think Anti Zionism is just plain stupid. That horse left the barn in 1948.

 

[dudalb]

Create 2 new Jerusalems. Transport randomly 2 out of 3 Christians, Jews, and Muslims to this new Jerusalem each getting their own new instance and the third getting the "real" Jerusalem. Only create 3, and don't tell anyone. Atheists, Sikhs and Janists can tour the real Jerusalem on holiday.

Problem with The Holy Land is it is holy to too damn many groups.

 

[dudalb]

I love the way some people in this thread say "I am not trying to excuse HAMAS" and then go ahead and attempt to do just that.

 

[Shadowdweller]

For those claiming (I think?) that Hamas would not exist or not be a problem without the mistreatment of the Palestinians: Would ISIS exist without Israel? Boko Haram? The Taliban? (Hezbollah too to a lesser extent, though it was originally formed to fight Israel in Lebanon)

I'm not honestly sure what the causative agents are for Hamas. But it seems to me that there are a fair number of Islamist organizations in nearby(ish) cultures that are perfectly willing commit horrible atrocities seemingly without being directly marginalized and oppressed by Israel.

 

[Shadowdweller]

duplicate

 

[Lithrael]

I am not excusing what Hamas are doing. I am pointing out that Israeli tactics towards the Palestinian's, Gaza and Hamas mean that it is now impossible for them to use any force, without falling into the category of terrorists.

It is a clever move by Israel, politically and militarily, to stack everything in their favour and make it such that those in Gaza cannot fight back, without becoming terrorists. It even means that those who are sympathetic to the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza, can be condemned as terrorist supporters.

If they were genuinely ONLY out there knocking down fences and even taking hostages, they might still be called terrorists by some, but they wouldn't be in the position they are in now, where people can see they have been full on firing into crowds of youngsters etc.

Like, you might say might as well be hanged for the goose as the gander, but that does imply you WANT to be doing the insanely brutal stuff on purpose.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Okay let's see some money where's some mouths are.

What COULD Hamas do that would be going too far?

 

[lobosrul5]

I love the way some people in this thread say "I am not trying to excuse HAMAS" and then go ahead and attempt to do just that.

Like anytime someone says:

"I'm not racsist, but....."

 

[dudalb]

For those claiming (I think?) that Hamas would not exist or not be a problem without the mistreatment of the Palestinians: Would ISIS exist without Israel? Boko Haram? The Taliban? (Hezbollah too to a lesser extent, though it was originally formed to fight Israel in Lebanon)

I'm not honestly sure what the causative agents are for Hamas. But it seems to me that there are a fair number of Islamist organizations in nearby(ish) cultures that are perfectly willing commit horrible atrocities seemingly without being directly marginalized and oppressed by Israel.

Na old joke in the MidEast:
What is the only thing a Arab hates worse then and Israeli?
Another Arab.

 

[dudalb]

When HAMAS took over Gaza in 2006, a number of "experts" predicted that being in charge and actually having to govern would change HAmAS and make them more moderate and pragmatic. Did not work out that way.
In fact, most of the time this "Give a extremist power in a governemnt, and he will have to moderate his behavior" backfires horribly.

 

[dudalb]

Someone just has a great comment on Bibi:

""when you choose a very hard line with the Palestinans, and refuse to have serious diuscussion with them, you had damn well deliver on the Security issue. Bini has failed miserably to do that".

 

[Dr.Sid]

Okay let's see some money where's some mouths are.

What COULD Hamas do that would be going too far?

You mean this wasn't it ? Launching thousands of missiles over previous months was not it ? Calling for death of basically everyone since ever was not it ?

 

[pipelineaudio]

I am a little disgusted. by the number of people in this forum who are openly trying to justify/excuse what HAMAS did.
Including people I really thought knew better.
But I forget that when it comes to making people do really stupid and ouirageous things, religion has nothing on political ideology.

My favorite part is that these are the same people who accuse others of antisemitism

 

[Aridas]

The threat of another Arab nation that hates Israel, is why there is no Palestine.
Israel has made sure of that. There is no, and never has been, the sign of it being possible to peacefully achieve a Palestine nation.

Yeah... this looks like it's born from the same root as your failed attempt to claim that Hamas has no army and no uniforms because Israel would consider that an act of war. The relationship to reality is tangential, at best.

Personally, I'd say that the main reason that there's no Palestine is almost completely the Arabs, including the Palestinians. They've had a fair few real chances to come to an agreement with Israel and co-exist. They've blown them, repeatedly. At the beginning, for example. Had they abided by the arrangements made with the British, that'd be one thing. Instead, they tried the winner takes all military approach and lost. That significantly weakened their position at the negotiating table. That pattern was repeated a number of times and has much to do with the current situation. The Arab Conceit in play is pretty terrible.

It is also not possible to do so with Hamas lead violence. The Palestinian people are left in limbo.

This, I'll agree with. Hamas is not really interested in co-existence and the Palestinian people suffer because of that. It's worth remembering that the Gazans voted them into power, though, and not for pretty reasons. It wasn't really a surprise when they thoroughly abused the power they were given, honestly.

Hamas also attacked military targets, but as an internationally prescribed terrorist organisation, putting on a uniform and only attacking military targets does not stop them being called terrorists by the Israelis.

Like it or not, a terrorist organization remains a terrorist organization even when they're not committing war crimes and terrorism in that specific instance. Hamas quite earned that terrorist organization designation and hasn't done much to shed that which earned it such.

I wonder why. Oh wait... I know why.

Maybe, maybe not. There's a few that I could likely name, none of which are remotely exonerating.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I'm openly disgusted by the hardwired switcheroo that people have when it comes to Israel/Palestine.
For one, Palestinians are always equated with Hamas, so any concern expressed for Palestinians is automatically switch to "support for Hamas" in their brains.
And secondly, the IDF is equated with Israel, and any criticism of it is automatically antisemitic.

I wish it was so easy to put others in a box and never have to think about my priors and positions ever again.