Well I can't speak to that. My only point is at this point in the discussion pretending that either what Rowlings views or or why people disagree with them is pretty well established.
Cont: Transwomen are not women - part 13
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Well I can't speak to that. My only point is at this point in the discussion pretending that either what Rowlings views or or why people disagree with them is pretty well established.
TurkeysGhost
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The UK is making it very clear they don't want to be categorized as "Europe", and that includes topics outside the trans debate.
I think very few progressives are imagining the UK when they dream of a Euro style soc-dem America.
TurkeysGhost
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Does Linehan have other conservative views? He is mostly famous for the intensity and openness of his anti-trans animus. I'm not aware of him being a wider advocate for conservative causes beyond really, really hating trans people.
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My broader point though was this sort of mental itch I have that tells me if JK Rowling had said the exact same thing in the exact same context BUT she had already been vaguely categorized as a conservative writer instead of a liberal one we wouldn't be talking about her right now and I don't if I think that's a good thing.
Because at the end of the day right now how much of an existential threat to the existence of trans people really is JK ******* Rowling? She's a writer who's already functionally retired and her pop culture creation made a mark that will never go away, I think everyone agrees we are post "Peak Potter" at this point. She's not going to get MORE influential.
I guess I'm asking that question I'm sorta always asking. Is this really the best use of our time?
Or... are people picking fights with softball opponents in a risk free environment?
Oh you're arguing against a non-trans person... on Twitter. Oh you brave soul you're putting yourself out there. What's next you're going arguing against incels on Tumblr? You're gonna go to a Mossad Convention and go "Ya know that Hitler guy was pretty bad, amirite?"
Because at the end of the day right now how much of an existential threat to the existence of trans people really is JK ******* Rowling? She's a writer who's already functionally retired and her pop culture creation made a mark that will never go away, I think everyone agrees we are post "Peak Potter" at this point. She's not going to get MORE influential.
I guess I'm asking that question I'm sorta always asking. Is this really the best use of our time?
Or... are people picking fights with softball opponents in a risk free environment?
Oh you're arguing against a non-trans person... on Twitter. Oh you brave soul you're putting yourself out there. What's next you're going arguing against incels on Tumblr? You're gonna go to a Mossad Convention and go "Ya know that Hitler guy was pretty bad, amirite?"
Why ever not? We have had liberal laws allowing official changing of "M" and "F" on all official paperwork since 2005, we've explicitly included transgender folk as a protected class in our equality legislation for over 10 years, it was added at the same time as sexual orientation was added, so that covers transgender people across the entire spectrum of equality legislation, in the likes of employment, housing, finance, medical and so on.
TurkeysGhost
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I don't understand your point. If she were a conservative writer she probably never would have been such a generally famous and beloved children's writer.
Sure, but the conversation about Rowling isn't only about Rowling, but about her ideas which seem to be at least somewhat popular. Rowling's brand of liberal transphobia is seemingly representative a larger ideology that seems to have some popularity in the UK. Discussing Rowling is discussing the broader issue. It's not the only way to do it, or even necessarily the best way to discuss the broader issue, but it is still discussing something broader than simply her personality.
It's like how George Floyd protests were more than about George Floyd's specific murder or personality. Sometimes individuals or specific events become stand-ins for larger issues. Flashpoints for longer simmering issues.
Probably not the best use of anyone time, sure, but it's not exactly clear what a better use would be. I suppose doing nothing would be about the same and probably more relaxing. We're all just screaming into the void as history happens to us, few have much influence to change things.
Your dating yourself here, Twitter is now Musk's $8chan cesspit. The culture has radically changed.
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d4m10n
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Well that explains why we've never heard of Orson Scott Card.
Or Jeffrey Archer or the thousands of conservative, and popular, authors out there.
theprestige
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Or Terry Goodkind.
TurkeysGhost
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Orson Scott Card is not Rowling famous, and his conservatism is not evident in the text his most famous books.
I would very much doubt that big entertainment companies would built a huge mega-brand around someone like Card because of his obvious reputational risks.
Where’s the conservatism in Rowling’s books? Just a few quotes will do.
By the way since the false claims about JKR appeared I went out of the was to purchase her Strike detective books. I have just enriched her further today by purchasing the seventh in the series.
So thank you TRAs. Your faux outrage has meant I’ve read some cracking books as well as adding to her bottom line.
TurkeysGhost
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That's my whole point. Her books are not conservative. Her heel turn to being an outspoken TERF happened well after the fact of her books and derivative products becoming massively popular.
I am saying if it were apparent from the early days that Rowling was some conservative, either in the text of the books themselves or as a result of her participation in public discourse, I very much doubt her books would have been as broadly popular.
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Manger Douse
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Nor is anything you've shown evidence of her saying conservative
d4m10n
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Rowling didn't change her views, though. What you are calling a "heel turn" is just a woman standing up for the idea that women should fight for sex-based rights to counter sex-based oppression. The confusion here stems from the idea that we can categorize everything into righteous and evil, hence the illusion of a "heel turn" from one to another.
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Cat Not Included
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A fundamental part of the Harry Potter series was that the villains claims and motivations were based in large part on promoting hatred and violence against "inferior" people - muggles and non-humans. Its a very clear parallel to real-world groups that have derived power from stirring up hated and animosity against a group of "others". There's also strong links to policies associated with such hate groups such as repressing education and controlling the media narrative, and a bureaucracy that refuses to acknowledge that problems exist. People tended to assume that since Rowling portrayed such attitudes as villainous, she would find the overall concept to be villainous, not simply based on which subgroup you happened to be attacking.
Every group that attacks people based on their identity has always claimed its based on legitimate reasons. The blacks are godless savages. The Jews have secret plans to control the world. The homosexuals are child molesters. Transgender people just secretly want to assault women. Its always claimed to be about safety or defense and its always, always been a load of bull trying to cover the same premise of "make an enemy for people to hate to get them to support you".
Yeah and it works the other way too. Every group that has ever had any degree of resistance put ON them plays the "we're just a poor widdle oppressed group" card.
"It's valid to oppose you" versus "No it's not" is the defining factor in every debate ever of all time. It's a truism, pointless.
NAMBLA tries to paint opposition to child rape as just being bigoted against a sexual choice.
Not every person claiming aggrieved status is right.
In the "First they came for the so and so and so's" metaphors there has to be an actual group that is doing the "coming for" that needs to be opposed.
"It's valid to oppose you" versus "No it's not" is the defining factor in every debate ever of all time. It's a truism, pointless.
NAMBLA tries to paint opposition to child rape as just being bigoted against a sexual choice.
Not every person claiming aggrieved status is right.
In the "First they came for the so and so and so's" metaphors there has to be an actual group that is doing the "coming for" that needs to be opposed.
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There is no 'heel turn'. Being gender critical (i.e. critical of the idea that being a man or a woman should be redefined as conformity to or identification with a gender stereotype) is perfectly consistent with not being conservative, and completely inconsistent with religious conservatives who believe in enforced gender conformity (hence by definition do believe in gender).
theprestige
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It's no secret that the policies proposed by trans-rights activists, are harmful to women, and harmful to children. This isn't some transphobic boogeyman cooked up by reactionary conservatives. It's an objectively misogynistic, child-abusing position openly championed by trans-rights activists themselves. Rowling didn't commit the sin of transphobia. Rowling committed the sin of daring to use her celebrity status to bring attention to the misogyny inherent in the trans-rights position.
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The signs of Rowling's bigotry were there from the start. Otherwise, Hogwarts would have accepted muggle magical students who identify as witches or wizards, and required students and faculty to be accommodating by pretending to be petrificus totalus-ed or expelliarmus-ed or whatnot whenever any student performed it at them.
Cat Not Included
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NAMBLA is a group. An organization with goals. It is not a "people who exist". Unless you are claiming that what, transgender people are part of a secret worldwide organization dating back for all of recorded history, that somehow organized themselves back in the days prior to global communication in order to...umm...what exactly?
Give me one example of history where oppressing and abusing a type or subset of people has turned out to be not awful.
Um, yes. Yes, a "transphobic bogeyman" is exactly what it is. Along with 'trans people cause natural disasters and school shootings' and 'trans people are trying to groom children to rape them'. The anti-trans groups started with those and has been throwing all the feces they can at the wall to get stuff to stick. It no secret that some political groups are claiming some policies proposed by...I guess the secret trans rulers of the world? are harmful, but a severe lack of actually showing it. And you'll forgive me if I'm more than a bit skeptical about the accuracy coming from the groups that are JUST horrified that a trans woman finished 7000th place in a woman's marathon and got a participation medal, or have outright said that they want to exterminate trans people.
Incidentally, with all the 'trans women are a danger to women', what is exactly has been the explanation for the murder and brutality directed toward trans woman who are into men? Are they a danger to men to? Is being interested in men just a secret cover for...um...something?
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