• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Effect of Hamas attack on Israeli politics?

SO glad you are so dimissive of justice. A Lack of justice will make a better world.

Nope. Not dismissive of justice. I said "the real world", not the "the ideal world". You were the one talking about "the real world", and unfortunately justice and reality are not the same thing.


I think things are diffreent this time around because of the scale of the HAMAS atrocities and the fear factor of what hundreds of HAMAS fighters released would mean.
I have the feeling that the hostages might be secondary right now.

You said:
I can't see how he gets hostages back without a major humiliation for Isreal. Israel is in no mood for that.

Yet, as webfusion points out, there are negotatiations for hostages going on in Qatar:

Qatari mediators have held urgent calls to try to negotiate freedom for Israeli women and children seized by the militant group and held in Gaza in exchange for the release of 36 Palestinian women and children from Israel's prisons, a source briefed on the talks told Reuters.

Qatar's foreign ministry confirmed to Reuters its involvement in mediation talks with Hamas and Israeli officials, including over a possible prisoner swap.

The ongoing negotiations, which Qatar has been conducting in coordination with the United States since Saturday night, are "moving positively" said the source, who has been briefed on them.

"We are in constant contact with all sides at the moment. Our priorities are to end the bloodshed, release the prisoners and make sure the conflict is contained with no regional spillover," foreign ministry spokesperson Majed Al-Ansari told Reuters, without elaborating.

Link

Regardless of what you think about the situation, this is the reality.
 
I hate Bibi, but this sounds a bit too much like "Blame the VIctim" to me.
It is fine to hate that moron Bibi, but if you don't hate HAMAS even more something is wrong.
As to how he was elected, it does not work like it does in the US. He got elected by making a deal in the Israeli Parliament with a couple of fringe Religious parties who had only three or four votes, but were enough to make him PM.
This is a reason why I do not want the US to go to a pure Parliamentary system.
I don't believe I said anything about dissing the victims.

It's their leaders that bear some of the blame. But that debate is off-topic for this thread,
 
So many things are wrong with this sentence alone.

Bibi is by no means a warmonger. In fact, he's a complete joke in that regard. He has been in office longer than any other person and he barely left any marks.

Not just in the security sense - in any sense (economical, religious etc)
Most PMs had some sort of legacy they left behind.
Bibi does nothing. He avoids confrontation with absolute madness. His resolution to anything has always been to just throw money at it - Hamas included.
Warmongering is not his forte.

In fact, it was he who initially through the idea that it's about time an arab party will make it into a government.
The man is by no means a right wing extremist with racist agendas.
He has no agendas other than keeping himself in power.


So what did happen?
Starting with 2013, there have been seeds in the opposition parties to boycott the man himself. Why?
Part of it is because he kept stabbing all his partners in the back and they had enough of him. Partly it was because they kept losing to him and thought that campaign would work.

I want to be clear on this - while the man absolutely earned the fact that nobody trusts him (including his partners who were caught on tape saying it) - the reasons for the boycott were not based on any ideology.
I can say this as a fact since half the people in the boycott later tried to join him - or gave excuses such as "we don't deal with people who have legal charges against them" shortly before begging other party leaders with legal charges against them to join their coalition.

The point is that the boycott movement made it so essentially Israel became like a 2 party system. "us" and "them".
Essentially, even moderate people had to choose one way or another.

And what separates "us" and "them"? Same thing all over the world. Conservatives vs Liberal. Religious vs Secular. Racism. The big cities vs the outskirts. The deep state elite vs the ignorant appressed masses.

Technically, in the election, the other side had more votes. But because the anti-Bibi side was not as organized as Bibi's side, a lot of those votes went to parties that didn't get enough votes to be counted, and thus their votes did not count.

Overall, at least before this whole thing started, it's pretty much a 50-50 thing with every tiny technical thing shifting the balance. That's why Israel had 6 election in the span of 4 years.


The more extremist came from Ben-Gvir. A person who up until recently made everyone throw up just thinking of the possibility of him making into parliament. But he tried to make an appearance of being slightly more moderate and frankly younger population did not remember all his past dealings. He was considered the "outsider" who will straighten things out.
Pretty much closest to our version of Trump.


Ever since he was elected, everyone are trying to restrain his lunacy and most likely if anyone is getting the boost after this? It's probably him over Bibi.
I respect your opinion and you clearly know more about the situation than I do.

So tell me this, has Bibi been pushing settlements or not? He made the coalition with the alt-right, did he not?

Guardian Op Ed: In the midst of war, Benjamin Netanyahu is a liability who can only make things worse. He must go
The explosion of Palestinian anger was not unexpected. It had been coming for months, amid almost daily, lethal violence in the West Bank, where rightwing Israeli settlers, egged on by extremist ministers such as Bezalel Smotrich and Itamar Ben-Gvir, appeared to act with impunity. The relentless expansion of illegal settlements and an increased Jewish presence on Temple Mount, by al-Aqsa mosque, when taken in the context of Netanyahu’s refusal to contemplate any kind of negotiated “peace process”, added fuel to the smouldering fire.

And a year ago: BBC: Israel PM-elect Netanyahu's deal plans to bolster settlements
 
I despise Bibi, but HAMAS is the problem now.
You can criticise several of the moves the US made with Japan before Pearl Harbor, but once Japan decided on an Surprise Attack to solve the problem that became irrevelent.
Right Now removing HAMAS from control of Gaza is the overriding priority, and a minimum one. I would prefer HAMAS being totally destroyed.
 
And if the demand is..as it will be..to release hundreds of HAMAS fighters to stage more attacks?
You really are not living in the real world.

Israel has done hostage swaps in the past. They even swapped prisoners for a dead body.
I guess they were not living in the real world either.

Or maybe you are not?
 
I despise Bibi, but HAMAS is the problem now.
You can criticise several of the moves the US made with Japan before Pearl Harbor, but once Japan decided on an Surprise Attack to solve the problem that became irrevelent.
Right Now removing HAMAS from control of Gaza is the overriding priority, and a minimum one. I would prefer HAMAS being totally destroyed.

I guess some people can't chew gum and walk at the same time.
 
the guys on Knowledge Fight pointed out that the attack is the 9/11 of Israel:
an unexpected, unimaginable attack by a terrorist organization they they thought they could understand and handle.

And it is very likely that Tel Aviv is going to go the way of Washington, spending the next 10-20 years spending untold billions and lives fighting a War on Terror that they can't win.

I truly hope cooler heads will see this pitfall coming and find a way to avoid it.
 
I respect your opinion and you clearly know more about the situation than I do.

So tell me this, has Bibi been pushing settlements or not? He made the coalition with the alt-right, did he not?

Guardian Op Ed: In the midst of war, Benjamin Netanyahu is a liability who can only make things worse. He must go


And a year ago: BBC: Israel PM-elect Netanyahu's deal plans to bolster settlements

Yes, the IDF warned that some settlers are 'Jewish nationalist terrorists' and are driving palestinians to more extremism. The Israeli government has been turning a blind eye to ethnic cleansing.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-spokesman-says-settler-violence-fueling-palestinian-terrorism/

https://www.nrc.no/news/2023/august...-disappeared-due-to-israeli-settler-violence/
 
A lot is going to depend on what happens on the Battlefield. It goes badly, Bibi might find himself facing a vote of no confidence. Hell, that even happened to Churchill at on point in world war 2.

Again, people keep pushing analogies to stuff that happened ages ago that isn't true in today's world.

Bibi will not have a vote of no-confidence. That will not happen.

To try and explain the situation - Bibi's coalition (excluding his own party) is made up of 2 types of parties.

The Hardeics, which the closest American thing would be.. Amish? Christian Scientists? Think extremely ignorant people who insist on not teaching science that interferes with religious study, oppose serving in the military because they pray and its equally as important, blame women on men being unable to control themselves etc.

The other group is the zionist-jewish party, which frankly today I would say the closest American thing is probably the KKK? Their voters are not as horrible as their current leaders (both of them are convicted terrorists) but the leaders are the ones in power.

The latter group is completely boycotted by the left so they have 0 reasons to knock down the government.

The former group does get offers from the left, but they are even more hated by the general public - they constantly poll slightly above the arab parties for whom do you least like to see in power.
They are also taking an insane amount of heat already because of the judicial reform - because people are scared of them turning the country into Iran. Now add a terrorist attack and their insistence in refusing to serve in the army because they think praying is enough?
Yeah... They'll be in a rush to go for another election right now.

None of his partners will topple the government.

The situation politically is not that happened after 9\11 or WW2 or any other time period that you will try to make an analogy for.

We had 6 election in the span of 4 years and all of them ending pretty much exactly the same way - the only differences being either minor technicalities of a party lacking a miniscule amount of votes or some outside force getting a temporary unity government (Covid)

The situations now is closer to covid and there are talks about adding Gantz (centrist party lead by a former chief of staff for the army) to the government because frankly none of the current clowns have any real security experience.

But that is an addition, not an ousting of anyone and absolutely not Bibi.
 
I respect your opinion and you clearly know more about the situation than I do.

So tell me this, has Bibi been pushing settlements or not? He made the coalition with the alt-right, did he not?

Let me try to explain it to you this way -

Bibi has 0 ideology. He cares about nothing other than his own prestige.
Again, I'm trying to think of how to explain this in American terms.

Imagine having a president that on the same day tried to build a coalition by talking to both leaders of the BLM movement and leaders of the KKK.
He did that in fact.

Sorry, going to go sidewise again to give a bit more information here.
There are currently 4 arab parties in Israel.

1) Hadash - Formerly the communist party. This is the party that was supposed to be about the jewish-arab coperation party and the only one that had jewish representatives. But it has become an extreme group.

2) Balad - The secular anti-zionist party (their words). This is the group that is considered the "most dangerous" group, a former leader of theirs fled the country after it was discovered he was disclosing information to Iran, another member was caught smuggling phones to terrorists in prisons and another was on the Marmara.

Currently this group decided to try and run the election by themselves and couldn't get the minimal amount of votes to get in - part of the reason why Bibi got his 64 seats.

3) Taal - Mostly a palastinian support party. Lead by Achmed Tibi, former advisor to Arafat.

4) Raam - Mansur Abas party. They are essentially the Islamic party.

All of them in the past have always made it perfectly clear that they will never join any government. Some of them come to actually work, others have actively admitted that their whole existence is just to interfere with the government no matter who is in power.

Their ideology was always that they will never take responsibility on something in Israeli government does and so they will never be a part of it.


Back to Bibi - Fast forward to 2021.
As the boycott movement against him grew, he was left without any options.
He tried to bribe left party leads to join him - something that has worked over and over again in the past - but he stabbed them all in the back they want nothing to do with him now. In particular after the 2019 unity government that was created due to Covid where he made the biggest public backstab ever to the only person who joined him (requires a separate thread on that mess)

Being boycotted by the left and not having enough seats from the right, he started looking into other options - including starting a massive campaign on how Mansur Abas ( leader of the islamic arab #4 party) is actually a great guy and he wants real peace and not into terror and such.


I'm not kidding... Bibi started that campaign. Not just behind the scenes stuff, he flat out said that in speeches.

Abas took that offer, he split from the joint arab block and ran by himself. He got into parliament and they had actual talks about him joining the government.

I don't know if you can understand what a massive politically tectonic event this is - of an arab party willing to join the government. It is something that will go down in history just a bit later because...

His other coalition partners (as I said, think KKK here) obviously refused to cooperate. So either way, Bibi couldn't get his majority votes to build a government.

As a result, he lost the ability to construct a government. The opposition got a chance which lead to Bennet switching sides and the previous government was built - with the arab party in it for the first time in history.

But that would have NEVER happened if Bibi hadn't run the campaign to legitimize them.

And once they made a government without him? He instantly started in a campaign that Abas is a terrorist and everything that happens is his fault. He flipped in an instant and you can be sure that if the situation flips again and he'll need him? He'll be a swell guy again.


The point of this extremely long post is to explain that Bibi has no ideology. He has dealt with extreme right and extreme left. He lead the biggest religious government (2023) and also the biggest anti-religious government (2013). He is responsible for arabs being full partners in politics and also sits by racists who refuse to be in the same room with them.

His government has built certain settlements and also tore down more settlements than any other.

He is only about staying in power. Nothing else. Well, you can add a bit of "really not wanting to go to jail" to the current list but that's about it.

All the things he has done in the past, present and likely future are not his doing. It's what his partners force him to do. And currently due to the boycott issues, his partners finally have a monopoly over him since they cannot be replaced.

That is why they run wild and he lost control ages ago.

Sorry that was very long, but I hope it answers your initial questions.

Yes, he is sitting with racists and convicted terrorists - not by choice. Heck, they despise him as well and their leader was caught on tape calling him a (rough translation) "A lier son of a lier".
But they are stuck together due to circumstances.
 
qui cum canibus concumbunt cum pulicibus surgent

Of course Bibi had a choice, and still has.
But, as GrandMasterFox explained, Bibi considers being in power more important than literally anything else, so he had to do what he did, which was handing the power of government to racists and convicted terrorists.
If he was acting in the interest of his country, he would have let the trail play out ionste4ad of trying to subvert the courts though politics.

so no, Bibi is responsible for everything his coalition does, because without him, there could not possibly be such a coalition.
 
Last edited:
Yes, the IDF warned that some settlers are 'Jewish nationalist terrorists' and are driving palestinians to more extremism. The Israeli government has been turning a blind eye to ethnic cleansing.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-spokesman-says-settler-violence-fueling-palestinian-terrorism/

https://www.nrc.no/news/2023/august...-disappeared-due-to-israeli-settler-violence/

It must be irritating. Surely there are plenty of members of the IDF and intelligence community who aren't dummies and understand just how disastrous these settler ghouls are to their broader counter-insurgency efforts. Hamas could not fabricate better propaganda than what these settlers proudly gloat about doing.

But states have conflicting domestic politics that often prevent them from doing what they may recognize as the best thing. Appeasing these right wing freaks within Israel often interferes with dealing with the Palestinian insurgent groups wisely.
 
Last edited:
Well, one of the things I predicted was the right wing government using this crisis to push trough its contested legislation.
It looks like I was wrong, which I'm glad about.
 

Well, one of the things I predicted was the right wing government using this crisis to push trough its contested legislation.
It looks like I was wrong, which I'm glad about.

Indeed. Certainly the National Emergency Government is saying this:

Israel's new war cabinet vows to 'wipe Hamas off the face of the earth'

Israel’s prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu addressed the nation alongside the opposition party leader, Benny Gantz, after the pair agreed to form an emergency government to direct war against Hamas.

A new war cabinet has been formed, consisting of Netanyahu, Gantz, and Israel’s defence minister, Yoav Gallant. During the fighting with Hamas, the emergency government will not take up any unrelated policy or laws, Netanyahu and Gantz said in a joint statement.

Netanyahu said they had put aside their differences “because the fate of our state is on the line”. Speaking alongside Gantz and Gallant, he compared the attack by Hamas with brutal killings carried out by Islamic State.
 
I think Judicial "Reform" is dead, the driving force behind that was Bibi, the doe s not have the pull he once did.

Right on the first one, wrong on the second one.
Bibi was never the instigator of the judicial reform and in fact his issue was that he lost his power and is now taking it back. He was begging for a unity government all this time behind closed doors. He needs to be rescued from his coalition.

It's a huge propaganda raised to try and make it so to justify the boycott against him.

The real story is... much worse.

Bibi was the person protecting the judicial system for decades from the people who wanted it pushed forward. Again, most likely not a moral issue but rather his constant fear of actually rocking any boats.

In fact, when the big storm hit after he fired the minister responsible for the army, protests massively exploded and the biggest unions declared a strike to stop the reforms - Bibi made a public speech about handling things and put a pause on the reforms.

It was later revealed that during the night Bibi had calls with the heads of the unions - meaning that most likely he begged them to make that declaration so he will have an excuse to step in to stop things (economical false flag?).




The supreme court had to deal with the issue of this situation that never happened before - a prime minister with a legal proceeding taking place against them.
The judges ruled that it is legal, but he has to sign a statement that he will have no conflict of interest and therefore cannot be involved in anything dealing with the legal system.
So his hands were tied - he couldn't even officially intervene to stop it legally.


Yarvin Levin (currently minister of courts), saw that and began drooling. The reform is actually his whole thing 100%. He tried to push it for years and Bibi kept blocking him.

There is also the issue that up until now, every single government that Bibi lead, always had at least 1 left party in it. As a result, the left party always made it clear that they object to judicial reforms and thus vetoed it or no government.

But due to the boycott now, there are no left parties in government - so all the obstacles are removed and Levin went wild.

The other members of the party are very split on this issue. Due to massive registration of extreme far right people and the lack of registration by moderates a lot of new faces were brought to the party. I'll avoid giving a huge summary of each of them, let's just say that I read some of the stuff that people posted on the GOP thread here - and I'm completely serious that I'd take almost any of them over the current clowns that we have. They make Marjorie Taylor Green look like a rocket scientist.

A lot of previous moderates legislators already jumped ship in 2021 when Saar left the party to raise his own. Since they barely made a dent on their own and were forced to hide under another party, it was a clear sign to anyone else within the party that going off-script will be terrible for them politically.
Most of them just keep their mouth shut and swallow the whole thing - though they are going nuts behind closed doors.

So some support the reform and the others just shut up and do nothing.

Levin took over the party essentially. In fact, while Bibi never attacked Levin or his plans in public, he did have several talks with him and tried to get him to back off. Levin threatened him back. Bibi is stronger in the party, but Levin is stronger outside the party due to the current coalition. Levin threatened that if Bibi interferes with the reforms then Levin will resign and take the other coalition members with him. Something that Bibi can't afford as that will be his doom if he can't hold a right wing government? He will be officially declared a burden and the party will rush to kick him out. They keep him around because he brings more votes than other people - if he is boycotted by the left and can't hold the right he is no longer useful.


(I apologize again for extremely long posts, but as requested a lot of background information is needed)

Why is the reform so big for the coalition partners?

I said before, the block is setup by 2 pairs of parties.

The first is the Haridic. Their main issue is that the supreme court constantly meddles in their affairs. The biggest issue for them is the get out of the military issue.
Overall, Israeli citizens are required to be drafted to the army. They were excused from that when the country first founded. Specifically, there was a 400 people cap for them. But their numbers grew massively (7.5 children on average to a family) and they are long over that cap.

Essentially, they live in voluntary ghettos. As I said, probably closest in America are the Amish. They have closed communities, they refuse to educate their children with basic skills like Math or English. They also have terrible segregation between men and women.

So you can imagine why it's an absolute must for them to try and excuse their people from the military - because taking them outside that environment is very likely to erase years of indoctrination.


In 2002, they passed a law that allowed them to avoid drafting legally. In 2012, however, the supreme court overruled that and forced the government to find a solution that doesn't violate civil equality. If they don't do that to a particular date, they have no protection and must all be drafted or be declared as AWOL and be arrested.

Ever since then, the governments have tried to pass secondary laws and mostly just requested postpones from the supreme court. They court allowed it mainly because governments kept falling apart one at a time.

In 2023, the final date expired and now they are officially all criminals, but the state made it clear that they have no intention to enforce it. But that is a temporary solution and if the government changes and they are not in power? That could change instantly. Hence again, why they will not vote no-confidence.

They still want to find a legal way to avoid serving in the military and that is why they are heavy on the judicial reform - specifically the clause that states that congress will be able to override the supreme court in a small majority vote.

To them, this is the holy grail and while they might gain a lot of other things from the reform, that is their main goal at the moment. Everything else is secondary. But they will fight to the death for it.





The other party is a combination of 2 parties. Both of them are extreme religious insanely far right winged. One is the current minister of national security and is an absolute monster. He is in the opinion that there's nothing wrong with getting absolute power and even tried to get his own legal militias.
The other party is lead by the minister of the treasury (Mr Grandmeiser) is the same, only even more religious and have actively said multiple times that he wants to put religious laws into play. Something the supreme court will never allow - thus the need to castrate it asap.


So that's why the coalition members insist on the judicial reforms.

And now with nobody to restrain them, they became bloodthirsty in that regard and went wild.




This is why the current disaster that brings in left parties into the fold is exactly what Bibi wanted all along. Gantz's first mandate was to stop all legislation that doesn't involve the current crisis - which is what Bibi needed to restrain his partners and gain power back.

That is also why he was very selective on who he invited to join the government - the ones that would give him the least problems and also would upset his partners the least. He made a public statement that they reserve seats for other parties - that is his threat to his coalition partners that they are now replaceable and they should start act like it.
That's his way of weakening Levin's threats.

He is terrified of the day after and what repercussions he'll get from either side - but he bought himself enough time to start finding solutions.

He is also an absolute master of backstabbing and demolishing people's political future. He crushed so many opposing forces from within and outside the party. I have no doubt he is already doing everything to setup Levin as a scapegoat and push him out the first chance he gets.
 
One last thing that I'll add - a big reason why this was so important for Levin and the coalition partners to rush the legal reforms so much is that once Bibi is removed from office (due to his legal case or just nature taking its course... The man is 73 years old and had some health issues) - there is absolutely no idea for anyone how the country would be like.

The boycott will not be in effect and the left will be transformed entirely. The arabs are now officially players on the map since last government.

Too many people inside the Likud think they will take power next, which means a big battle between them and likelihood of some of the losers leaving to create new parties.

So the grounds will be very unstable and unpredictable.


There is also the issue that in 2019, Bibi raised the unity government due to the crisis (Covid) and in order to get Gantz to agree and form a unity government, he made a deal with him and the rest of the coalition agreed to be the guarantees that Bibi will not backstab him.

Of course Bibi stabbed him - not even in the back and the coalition was furious about it as he pretty much made their word completely worthless and reduced their words for future deals.

Nobody trusts him at the moment. One of his "partners" was recently caught on tape calling him a "lier that is the son of a lier" (in the son of a B-word sense)

His partners didn't trust him to actually keep his word that he will give them the reforms he promised. Which is why they went to someone else (Levin) and also demanded that this time they all wanted payment up front.


So yeah, Bibi is responsible for this mess. But he is not the leading force of it.
 
The Jerusalem Post is a very conservative Isreali newspaper, and in a Poll 805 of it's readers blame Bibi for the intellgence failure. if he doing that badly with his core costituincey, that, after the crisis has passed, he is toast.
 

Back
Top Bottom