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Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

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JayUtah said:
You’ve been silently quoting Björkmann for everything else today having to do with ro-ro ferries. And now you fall back for evidence only you have seen for this “usual” practice. You’re lying.
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I am not the slightest bit interested in 'personalities'. You have an obsession with Bjorkmann. I do not.

Don't tell me what I saw and what I didn't see.
 
Vixen said:
In case you are asking, how come it doesn't add up to 73 + 94 = 167, this is because in Steve Morse's distance calculator, he adjusts for the fact that latitude is only exactly 60nm per 1º at the Equator. Due to earth being globe-shaped, his distance calculations include an adjustment for latitudes and longitudes further north and south of the equator. So one short journey might add up to X nm and a continuation, to Y nm, but the entire journey combined, X + Y might throw out a curve ball result based on this inherent mathematical adjustment.
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I think you will be hard pressed to find anyone else in this thread that did not know that the earth is not flat. Especially those of us that are trained, have taken exams related to marine navigations, and actually do navigate boats and ships.

We also know exactly how to apply what you call a "mathematical adjustment" when we plot a multi-leg route on a chart so that all the distances add up correctly.

That you can't make them add up just means that you either are using broken tools, or do not know what you are doing.
 
JayUtah said:
But you claimed you acknowledged the error. That was a lie. You tried to spin an answer that made it sound like you were still somehow right. And yes we’re going to bog down in pointing out your lies as long as you keep lying.
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Er, spelling out the bow visor weighs 55 tonnes is an acknowledgement it is not 15kgs.

But carry on, as you obviously are enjoying yourself.
 
Vixen said:
I am not the slightest bit interested in 'personalities'. You have an obsession with Bjorkmann. I do not.
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Hiding your crackpot source doesn't work. We know where you're getting these wacky claims.

Don't tell me what I saw and what I didn't see.
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Show us the pictures, then. Otherwise, the parsimonious conclusion is that you're lying. You say it was "not unusual" for ships to travel their whole voyages with the bow visor raised. Prove it.
 
zooterkin said:
Once again, that is a lie. Feel free to prove me wrong by linking to this alleged question to which you were simply giving an answer.

I've already linked to the actual exchange in my recent post.
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If that is what you prefer to believe that is your preference. I have no control over what you decide to believe. I am guessing it is a battle of wills to impose your views on me. I have told you I disagree with you. You cannot force me to agree with something I disagree with.
 
Vixen said:
Er, spelling out the bow visor weighs 55 tonnes is an acknowledgement it is not 15kgs.
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But that's not what you "spelled out." You invented a new part for the ship so that your original claim wouldn't seem wrong. Far from acknowledging that you made a mistake and asking to correct it, you tried to hide your error by making up stuff.

Anyway, the story is fully fleshed out for everyone to see. Once again you're trying to hide your mistakes and pretend you never made them.

This matters only because you're pretending to be the teacher and pretending to correct everyone else. Under that color, when you callously throw around wrong units and wrong values, you can't expect much quarter.
 
Mojo said:
You do realise that we can go back and read what you posted, don't you?

Here's the post in which you introduced the weight of the visor: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=14174248#post14174248

There's no question about the visor there, just your claim that the bow visor "is tiny, just 15 kg".

If you like, I can also link to the post in which you defended this claim by inventing a "casing" weighing 54,985kg. Would you like that?
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As I said to another poster I got the 15kg mixed up with the Atlantic bolt.


It is no big deal.



Sheee-eesh!
 
Vixen said:
I am not the slightest bit interested in 'personalities'. You have an obsession with Bjorkmann. I do not.
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It comes as no surprise that you aren't concerned about the reliability of your sources.

Don't tell me what I saw and what I didn't see.
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You did not see that the stern ramp was opened by crew to let out noxious fumes, you didn't see cannon going off in John Major's back yard, and you didn't see a Times newspaper report filed by an embedded reporter in the German front lines at Stalingrad.
 
Vixen said:
As I said to another poster I got the 15kg mixed up with the Atlantic bolt.
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15 kg is a reasonable weight for part of the Atlantic locking assembly. It's a completely ludicrous value for a bow visor, and someone who claims she knows ships would have caught herself.

It is no big deal.
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It's a big deal when you pretend to be the only one who's right and then try to cover up your mistakes and then claim virtuous motives.
 
JayUtah said:
No. As stated, your claims on this point come from one writer, who relied on one source—conspiracy theorist Margus Kurm—to supply the information. Then somehow all the allegedly corroborating information mysteriously "disappeared."

I know why Koivisto was in Helsinki. You don't. I'm not the one making up stories about him.
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Absolute rubbish. Kurm wasn't even in the picture as of Jan 1995 when Koivisto did his presentation. Finnish officials do not tend to corruption or razzmatazz window dressing. Finns are straight talkers. If Koivisto says the buoys were not tuned, he means they were not tuned. I am not interested if a poster here feels his face is lost by Koivisto's comments.
 
Mojo said:
Nobody has suggested that this would be a joke. It is your source claiming that the visor was instantly etched into nothingness by nuclear waste while the stern gate was opened to let out tobacco smoke that was an obvious joke, that you swallowed hook, line, and sinker.
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Oh please.
 
Mojo said:
You do realise that we can go back and read what you posted, don't you?

Here's the post in which you introduced the weight of the visor: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=14174248#post14174248

There's no question about the visor there, just your claim that the bow visor "is tiny, just 15 kg".

If you like, I can also link to the post in which you defended this claim by inventing a "casing" weighing 54,985kg. Would you like that?
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Vixen said:
As I said to another poster I got the 15kg mixed up with the Atlantic bolt.


It is no big deal.



Sheee-eesh!
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OK, here's the post in which you defended that claim by inventing a 54,985kg "casing" in order to avoid admitting that you had made a mistake:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=14174978#post14174978
 
Vixen said:
Mojo said:
Nobody has suggested that this would be a joke. It is your source claiming that the visor was instantly etched into nothingness by nuclear waste while the stern gate was opened to let out tobacco smoke that was an obvious joke, that you swallowed hook, line, and sinker.
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Oh please.
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It's too late for you to go back and delete it.
 
Vixen said:
Absolute rubbish. Kurm wasn't even in the picture as of Jan 1995 when Koivisto did his presentation.
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That doesn't mean he can't lie about it later.

I am not interested if a poster here feels his face is lost by Koivisto's comments.
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I know what Koivisto's credentials actually are and what he actually said. You don't. My face is therefore fine. You're the one parroting one guy's article full of holes.
 
Vixen said:
I wasn't referring to either Björkmann or MS Saga Star. I was referencing
photos I have seen myself. Of course it is negligent to fail to lower the bow visor. But as I pointed out, MS Estonia had barely left the coastal region of Estonia just as she reached the way point where she turned WNW towards Stockholm, she only reached international waters after 22 nm.
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Wth... do you think seas only suddenly become rough at the intl waters line or something?!
 
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