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Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

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Vixen said:
What rot.

A poster asked how much did the bow visor weigh and I responded, with the casing, girders and frame, 55tonnes.
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Nope, you claimed that "the bow visor in the scheme of things is tiny, just 15 kg", and then, when challenged on that posted, "With the casing it weighs 55 tonnes." You didn't, as you claim, acknowledge that describing the visor as weighing 15kg was an error, you invented a "casing" that weighed 54,985kg in an attempt to reconcile your claim with (something like) reality without actually acknowledging the error.
 
JayUtah said:
No, no amount of handwaving makes the joke come true. You claimed nuclear waste melted the car ramp doors and you cited to a joke site unironically as authority. The Onion also "makes light of social issues" and "pokes fun at the media" and "pompous asses," but we know not to believe it's real. And yet plenty of people still cite to it in desperation—not realizing what it is—to support ludicrous claims.



You're the one who didn't get the joke. Americans understand chemistry, which is how we were able to point out to you that your source wasn't meant to be taken seriously.
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I certainly did not claim that nuclear waste melted the car ramp doors. I could certainly see that the stern ramp was opened by crew to let out noxious fumes. Ruotsalainen believes the stern ramp was opened completely near the Dagö bank near Hiiumaa and two military trucks dumped, based on his firsthand examination of a sonar printout when he was an eighteen-year-old Swedish navy intern shortly after the disaster. Given the historical smuggling of rare and nuclear materials, his belief is perfectly feasible.
 
Vixen said:
I can only imagine it is some kind of an estimated weight, what with the bolts and screws missing. As you know, the Atlantic lock was simply chucked back into the water, yet it is supposedly key to the bow visor dropping off.
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How heavy are you imagining these bolts and screws to have been? What is really perplexing, however, is your preference for imagination over facts.
 
JayUtah said:
Did you read the same post I did? You're trying to present Margus Kurm as an expert in forensic engineering in shipping. He's a public figure. His training and professional experience was in law. Could he not also have learned enough about engineering? Evidently not, judging by the statements he's made.
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No, he was saying that of course Sweden should take over as Estonia was only a little country, even though the ship was under its flag and crew.


This goes back to the arrogance of Bill Clinton and his chums.
 
Vixen said:
I certainly did not claim that nuclear waste melted the car ramp doors. I could certainly see that the stern ramp was opened by crew to let out noxious fumes. Ruotsalainen believes the stern ramp was opened completely near the Dagö bank near Hiiumaa and two military trucks dumped, based on his firsthand examination of a sonar printout when he was an eighteen-year-old Swedish navy intern shortly after the disaster. Given the historical smuggling of rare and nuclear materials, his belief is perfectly feasible.
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Can we "see" this, too?
 
Vixen said:
Phiwum might think it a coincidence but it is more likely to be an amusing story than a real coincidence. As I don't know the full facts and he swears that the probability of the two names together are one in ten million, I conceded it to him, on the assumption the two names would be most unlikely as a pet's name.
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Vixen, a coincidence is just two things corresponding without there being an actual connection. If there's no connection then it's a coincidence, however probable or improbable it is.
 
Vixen said:
I certainly did not claim that nuclear waste melted the car ramp doors. I could certainly see that the stern ramp was opened by crew to let out noxious fumes. Ruotsalainen believes the stern ramp was opened completely near the Dagö bank near Hiiumaa and two military trucks dumped, based on his firsthand examination of a sonar printout when he was an eighteen-year-old Swedish navy intern shortly after the disaster. Given the historical smuggling of rare and nuclear materials, his belief is perfectly feasible.
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Let's look at what you actually posted:
Vixen said:
Not my idea.

Hikipedia
According to the official explanation, the Estonian accident happened when the bow gate failed, but the bad languages ​​say that the real cause was after nuclear waste smuggled from Russia to the west spilled on the car deck from a Russian truck trailer. Nuclear waste instantly etched the already rusted bow visor into nothingness, and the masses of water plunged into the car deck. Unfortunately, at the same time, the staff opened the stern gate of the ship to vent the tobacco smoke off the car deck. The cargo began to move, and this created a heel that caused the ship to sink.
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Hikipedia

You have to admit, the Swedes immediately wanted to cover the whole thing with concrete.
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JayUtah said:
Nor would it matter if they were. The trope that Americans don't get British humor is as stereotypical as ships always turning turtle and floating for hours. British humor has been consistently popular and normalized in the U.S. for at least 50 years.

No, it's a desperate ploy (identified by Mojo too) from Vixen to pretend she's the only one who can properly tell which parts of the joke article are factual and should be taken on the authority of Finnish satirists, and which are the joke parts. Sure, we all recognized it as a joke, but only Vixen can properly tell us what the true parts are.
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Americans have a great sense of humour and of course they understand irony and satire. They just haven't grown up with the type of schoolboy stuff Brits have. Brits have never quite come out of the playground, so whilst Americans love Superman and Batman, Brits have Roy of the Rovers and Beryl the Peril as their superheroes. It's an anti-hero thing in some ways.
 
Vixen said:
A whole pile of life vests and life rafts were found dumped washed up on the shores of a tiny fishing village in Dirham, Estonia, together with one of the EPIRB's mysteriously switched off and untuned.


Sure, the current moves flotsam along but all of this stuff all found together in one place (yet no bodies). Really?
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The buoys were not 'untuned' That's just some twaddle you invented.
There's no way to 'untune' an EPIRB

As for the debris turning up on the same beach, what would you expect when it started in the same place and was moved by the same wind and current?

All the floating bodies in the water were recovered. Those missing were trapped in the hull or on the seabed. They don't float as well as lifejackets, that's the point of lifejackets.
 
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Vixen said:
Americans have a great sense of humour and of course they understand irony and satire. They just haven't grown up with the type of schoolboy stuff Brits have. Brits have never quite come out of the playground, so whilst Americans love Superman and Batman, Brits have Roy of the Rovers and Beryl the Peril as their superheroes. It's an anti-hero thing in some ways.
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*nods*

Yeah, so that puts that mystery to rest...
 
Vixen said:
What rot.



A poster asked how much did the bow visor weigh and I responded, with the casing, girders and frame, 55tonnes.
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We can all read the thread Vixen. When you realised you had erroneously claimed the visor weighed 15kg, you *didn't* admit that was a mistake, you revised your figure to include another mere 54,895kg as if that were some minor discrepancy over exactly which parts of the visor count as "the visor".

I hope you can see that reading responses from someone who seems to display an almost pathological aversion to admitting being wrong about anything makes it hard for the reader to believe the person they're debating with will be arguing in good faith.
 
Vixen said:
But it is not actually a joke. People really can't grasp the type of smuggling that was going on.
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Some smuggling has taken place...

Egro....

This sinking was caused by smuggled goods escaping containment and yada-yada "nuclear" now your brain is off "melted stuff" and "tobacco smoke" was involved and then the swamp gas trapped in a weather balloon reflected off of the light of Venus in the sky...
 
Vixen said:
Well, the automatically-activated on immersion buoys were found to be switched off and found dumped together with a whole load of other life-saving stuff. I believe one EPIRB was caught by a fisherman, also switched off, despite having been checked by the ship's electricians as being set up and activated the week before.
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The buoys were not immersion activated and not found 'dumped' together. One was recovered from a beach and the other by a fishing boat
 
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Vixen said:
There is a vertical tear as well as a horizontal one. Or are you of the opinion that "water cannot penetrate a vertical tear". Anything to avoid admitting you are incorrect.
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How many tons per second do you calculate this vertical tear might admit? Would it be enough, when you have insisted the entire bow ramp would not be?
 
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