Cont: Transwomen are not women - part 13

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TurkeysGhost said:
The focus on suicide and poor mental health of trans people generally is directly related to the question of whether nor not trans affirming care is medical care vs something more akin to entirely optional cosmetic surgery. As far as I can tell there's not exactly a consensus on whether medicalizing the issue is really the correct way to view the larger issue of trans rights, even among good-faith, non-bigoted people. I would say it's only one facet of a larger issue.

A lot of this is very context dependent, like in the UK where a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria was a necessary precondition for gender recognition, thus casting the entire issue in a medical light, vs other countries that do not gatekeep trans right in this way.
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It still is.
 
d4m10n said:
http://fra.europa.eu/en/publication...s-child-eu/access-transgender-hormone-therapy

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
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The devil is in the details. For example, we know for a fact that very few trans people in the UK are actually getting the medical care they are by policy entitled to receive.

A policy is not worth the paper it's written on if this care is not practically available.

Wait times to get an appointment at gender clinics in the UK are years long, this is far from "exemplary".
 
JoeMorgue said:
"Socialized medicine is anti-trans!" is a goddamn goldmine of a point for this land on.
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UK socialized medicine is anti-trans. the NHS worked fine until years of austerity politics cut the knees out from under it.

The rest of the commie world is looking over at the UK and hoping whatever they have isn't contagious, because their socialized systems are chugging along just fine.

You miss the point though. It's worth questioning whether hinging trans rights on receiving certain medical diagnosis and/or interventions is necessary at all. The injury of having this care practically unavailable in the UK would be less pronounced if this wasn't a necessary precondition for legal recognition in the country. Requiring a diagnosis, then making appointments all but unavailable, is simply an anti-trans policy with extra steps.
 
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Brainster said:
The insurers will shut it down well before that. Some lawyer, somewhere, is already airing commercials like this:

"Were you or a loved one diagnosed with gender identity disorder in your adolescence or teen years and prescribed puberty blockers by your doctor? Puberty blockers have been found to cause sterility and lots of other health problems. Contact the number on your screen to..."
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Fair point. The US is likely to take a different and stranger approach on the topic.
 
Ziggurat said:
I want to add to this part of the author's claims you didn't really touch on but I think are important:



You talked about the reversibility aspect, but the later transition aspect deserves some attention too. What are the consequences of transitioning later? Is it really harder? I don't think the author has backed up that claim.

From what I've been able to determine, the only sense in which it's "harder" is superficial cosmetic differences, and mostly for M-to-F and not F-to-M. If you go through male puberty, you'll develop facial hair, your bone structure will become more masculine, and your voice will deepen. Even with subsequent hormone treatment and surgery, you're likely to look less feminine than you would had you transitioned before puberty. So, that's a downside.

But there are upsides too, even if you do transition. There's the whole cognitive development issue, which is hard to get good data on, but shouldn't be discounted. You'll be able to experience sexual arousal, which is no small thing. And if you ever want to have vaginoplasty, there will be enough penile tissue to use so that you don't have to resort to using intestinal graft. Vaginoplasty is a really risky surgery with extremely high complication rates, and it's much safer if you aren't trying to graft intestinal tissue at the same time. So overall, an M-to-F transition post-puberty may produce inferior cosmetic results, but it's not harder. It's arguably easier.

For F-to-M, you'll develop facial hair whether you take hormones pre or post puberty, your voice will drop whether you transition pre or post puberty. You might get a bit more masculine bone structure if you transition pre puberty, but F-to-M pass more easily than M-to-F so that doesn't make much difference. A mastectomy done pre or post doesn't make a big difference either. You're cutting out more tissue post-puberty, but either way you're still cutting out tissue which is the main thing. And from what I can tell phalloplasty won't be any different either. Whether or not you've gone through female puberty doesn't seem to have much direct effect on F-to-M transitions.
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You're spot on. The "harder" part of transition is all cosmetic.

I'll add to your post that even if a male takes blockers and immediately moves to cross-sex hormones... none of that stops them from growing enormous feet and hands, nor does it materially reduce their adult height. All of those are driven by the adrenal gland, not the pituitary.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Fair point. The US is likely to take a different and stranger approach on the topic.
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One of the reasons the Missouri gender clinic decided to stop all "treatment," even though under the new law those already on "treatment" could contiue, is that the statute of limitations for malpractice was extended to 15 years after the age of 21. Or up to age 36. As we know most gender dysphoria resolves, the liability catastrophe was obvious.
 
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Trausti said:
One of the reasons the Missouri gender clinic decided to stop all "treatment," even though under the new law those already on "treatment" could contiue, is that the statute of limitations for malpractice was extended to 15 years after the age of 21. Or up to age 36. As we know most gender dysphoria resolves, the liability catastrophe was obvious.
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What an interesting point. Remove statute of limitations which appears to be the norm in eg sex offences, where many men get a nasty surprise when they had forgotten all about it.
If it is a good practice now, then it is good for the life time of the subject. Surely?
 
Darat said:
Your link does not show which nations "provide exemplary access to the endocrine treatment pathway".
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No, it shows which nations make people wait until either 16 or 18 to access cross-sex treatments.

For whatever reason, trans rights advocacy groups don't appear to be tracking youth access to blockers and hormones when they map out the situation in Europe: https://transrightsmap.tgeu.org/home/health

I think my point stands, though: If the endocrine pathway really saves lives, that effect ought to be measurable somehow. Differences in policy at the state or nation state level provides one possible natural experiment, if no one cares to setup large longitudinal studies.
 
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NHS England publishes new guidance on social transitioning in schools saying children should not be allowed to socially transition without parental involvement.

"The NHS England guidance restates the NHS’s position, set out by the Cass review on gender identity services, that social transition is an “active intervention” rather than a “neutral act”. It also notes that “there are lots of unanswered questions from research in relation to the benefits and potential consequences of social transition on mental health and wellbeing”.
 
Elaedith said:
NHS England publishes new guidance on social transitioning in schools saying children should not be allowed to socially transition without parental involvement.

"The NHS England guidance restates the NHS’s position, set out by the Cass review on gender identity services, that social transition is an “active intervention” rather than a “neutral act”. It also notes that “there are lots of unanswered questions from research in relation to the benefits and potential consequences of social transition on mental health and wellbeing”.
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Hopefully that puts the final nail into the coffin of LJ's argument by appeal to government policy.
 
The Youtube algorithm has decided to boost the below clip from Robert Sapolsky's phenomenal series of lectures on human behavior. He makes a similar argument, as I recall, in his book Behave.

 
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theprestige said:
Hopefully that puts the final nail into the coffin of LJ's argument by appeal to government policy.
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Helen Joyce pointed out on the Platfom NZ today that the issue differs from most civil rights issues, it gets worse and worse the closer you look.


https://youtu.be/4ohgXZm3Zu8?si=z_7XwHuWAJ3tloGk

Also posted on NZ politics.
(Sean is rough as guts, but this is the only channel that would ever invite Helen Joyce. New Zealand is a Joe Biden disciple).
 
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Samson said:
Helen Joyce pointed out on the Platfom NZ today that the issue differs from most civil rights issues, it gets worse and worse the closer you look.
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Because the civil rights issues have already been mostly solved, and what we're looking at here is actually a medical ethics issue. Medical ethics issues pretty much never get better the closer you look.

ETA: And of course the fact that the TRAs are on the wrong side of a medical ethics issue should tell you just how far off the beam they've gotten.
 
Cain said:
The Youtube algorithm has decided to boost the below clip from Robert Sapolsky's phenomenal series of lectures on human behavior. He makes a similar argument, as I recall, in his book Behave.

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I posted about the BSTc this before in this thread.

Since then it appears the issue may be even more complicated, because there seem to be contradictory claims in the literature about whether BSTc size correlates with sexual orientation.

I predicted earlier that '... activists will object to a situation where treatment such as puberty blockers is based on objective evidence such as a brain scan, because the primacy of subjective identity of material reality is fundamental to the ideology, (as is the need to deconstruct biological sex altogether). '

It turns out that in fact activists did shut down a major research project into the neurobiological basis of gender dysphoria. As far as I know it hasn't restarted.

Although some of the objections were to the methodology (which had already passed ethical review), it is clear they object to any method definition of transexualism/transgenderism based on biology, or to any objective means of predicting who might benefit from medical transition.

Activists also started a petition to try to get the researchers suspended by their university.

'Dr. Jamie et al. are attempting to create a machine learning algorithm that claims to predict the likelihood of detransition after hormone treatment "with the goal of determining which patients will benefit from hormone therapy - prior to undergoing hormone therapy." Dr. Jamie et al. are blatantly developing technology that will be used to exclude transgender people from hormone therapy and surgeries. '
 
A federal court just issued a preliminary injunction blocking a California school policy forcing teachers to lie to parents about their kids' gender identities.

https://www.thomasmoresociety.org/n...chool-from-forcing-teachers-to-lie-to-parents

The case isn't settled yet, but winning the preliminary injunction is still an indicator of how the court is likely to rule. From what I can tell, this injunction doesn't mean that teachers aren't allowed to lie to parents, only that school administrators cannot compel it, and I suspect a final ruling in this case in favor of the plaintiffs will not go any further than that. Even so, it's still a major blow to policies that try to hide transition from parents. School districts are going to have to consider whether or not they want to fight potential lawsuits from their own teachers in the face of this precedent.
 
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