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Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

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Vixen said:
I didn't say I was an expert.
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JayUtah said "you claim to have expertise in psychology", which is exactly what you did:

Vixen said:
Please stop with the rationalizing and the pop-psychology. You are talking down to a psychology postgraduate here.
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What postgrad qualification did you get? You made the claim, it's reasonable to ask for clarification. Did you get a postgrad qualification in psychology, or do you just mean you have a degree?
 
Axxman300 said:
Piht had a job to do that night. His ship, HIS SHIP, was in trouble. How can you not understand basic seamanship? Doesn't matter what the PASSENGERS were doing at that moment, only that Piht didn't act as a coward in those final minutes. And while we know where his cabin was, we don't know where he was in that last half hour, but the fact he drowned, and he did drown, is not suspicious. In fact, had he survived he's still be in prison, and there would be nothing for conspiracy loons to chew on.
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It was NOT Piht's ship. It was Captain Anders Andresson's ship and he was lying dead on the bridge with a bullet hole in his forehead, according to a diver. Piht was the second captain. He had just come off duty. He had every prospect of survival and was seen by numerous people. The Danish press and Helsingin Sanomat, as well as the London Evening Standard (who had a headline, 'The Guilty will be brought to Justice! - Piht to be interviewed today' (iirc) quoted him as being in Turku or Helsinki, and Helsinki was where the three Prime Ministers were headed, after their appointment in speaking to Piht'. This is meeting and its purpose was recorded in Swedish papers. The high-up marine official who gave the interview was sacked shortly after,

It is quite feasible he was arrested and court martialled, possibly in another country all together as arranged by the CIA, who were close to Bildt (and why not). As special naval divers were searching his room thoroughly it seems obvious he was under suspicion, and surely would have been simply by dint of being one of the senior crew.
 
Vixen said:
I won't be giving put personal information in a public place (you've seen the abuse).
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Then I reject your claim to expertise. You’ve been given several opportunities to exhibit proficiency in psychology but you’ve shied away from every one. Your objections rose no higher than what we expect from a disgruntled lay person.
 
JayUtah said:
If I thought for a moment that you actually believe anything you claim, I would say you are a textbook conspiracy theorist.



No.



You begin with the assumption that the JAIC report is wrong because you think it was a coverup. You state this despite having no useful knowledge of the sciences and disciplines that pertain to it.



Your knowledge of physics has been tested at both the theoretical and practical levels. You have no cognizable competence in physics.



As I said: conspiracy theorists don't recognize any expertise but their own, and often accuse their critics of being smart only in the sense of being more clever or better at debate.
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Ha ha! I looked carefully at the JAIC Report looking for answers. All I saw was a descriptive narrative that evaded getting to the crux of the real matters.
 
Because that's what you wanted to see and aren't qualified or competent enough to know what you're talking about.
 
Vixen said:
I am not at all a conspiracy theorist and never have been.
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Vixen said:
It was NOT Piht's ship. It was Captain Anders Andresson's ship and he was lying dead on the bridge with a bullet hole in his forehead, according to a diver. Piht was the second captain. He had just come off duty. He had every prospect of survival and was seen by numerous people. The Danish press and Helsingin Sanomat, as well as the London Evening Standard (who had a headline, 'The Guilty will be brought to Justice! - Piht to be interviewed today' (iirc) quoted him as being in Turku or Helsinki, and Helsinki was where the three Prime Ministers were headed, after their appointment in speaking to Piht'. This is meeting and its purpose was recorded in Swedish papers. The high-up marine official who gave the interview was sacked shortly after,

It is quite feasible he was arrested and court martialled, possibly in another country all together as arranged by the CIA, who were close to Bildt (and why not). As special naval divers were searching his room thoroughly it seems obvious he was under suspicion, and surely would have been simply by dint of being one of the senior crew.
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:dl:
 
Survival in a ship sinking quickly in a storm at night in northern waters is a lottery. It's a matter of luck rather than skill. If you don't get to a raft or have a good immersion suit you are probably dead whatever training you have.
If you don't get off the ship at all you are just as dead.
 
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Vixen said:
Ha ha! I looked carefully at the JAIC Report looking for answers. All I saw was a descriptive narrative that evaded getting to the crux of the real matters.
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No. All you demonstrated was how unqualified and uninformed you are to criticize the work of your betters. And how dishonest, judging from how you’ve structured your excerpts from it.
 
Here_to_learn said:
Wrong. There is absolutely nothing in the facts and public statements that I quoted and linked to that does support your statement above.

In fact, for those that care about facts, it's possible to read the full reasoning behind the decision by the chief prosecutor at https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?...F1C4-9845-446A-A37B-275576069EEA&tab=post#tab

It's an image scan of a 7 page document in Swedish so I will not transcribe it, nor translate it. My summary is:

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They used four different sources of information:
* The JAIC report
* The report from the German Experts
* A report from Anders Björkman
* A book called "Katastrofkurs - Estonias väg mot undergång"

On top of that, interviews with survirors, visits to the Mayer, cooperation with Finland and Estonian agencies and so on.

They summarize the conclusions from the JAIC report, and conclude that since it cannot be shows that Estonia was built in a way that was against regulations at the time, and also that official inspections did not notify the owners that the ship was not fulfilling requirements, that could not be used for criminal prosecution.

They summarize the German Experts report, and conclude that the claims that the ship correctly built but badly maintained does not align with JAIC, nor with other sources.

They dismiss Björkmans report in a short chapter.

The summary of the book say that it describes a combination of the two reports, and put blame on the crew.

When it comes to the crew, they conclude that since they cannot investigate how their actions potentially contributed, they cannot proceed.

In summary they say that without being able to identify the full cause of the accident without any doubt, they cannot proceed. They also say that they cannot see that additional dives on the ship would provide the answers needed.
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"put blame on the crew" - there we have it in a nutshell. The case is closed. The crew have been dealt with.

Someone here said it was unkind to do that. I think 'vile' was the word used.
 
zooterkin said:
JayUtah said "you claim to have expertise in psychology", which is exactly what you did:



What postgrad qualification did you get? You made the claim, it's reasonable to ask for clarification. Did you get a postgrad qualification in psychology, or do you just mean you have a degree?
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Oh no, I am not laying myself open to abuse.
 
How on earth will that lay you open to abuse?

Even if it does abuse is against the MA and you can report it.

You're just giving weak excuses.
 
Vixen said:
Oh no, I am not laying myself open to abuse.
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Why/how could that possibly happen? It's just a qualification. I'd happily announce mine, though nobody, I imagine, would be much interested.
 
GlennB said:
Why/how could that possibly happen? It's just a qualification. I'd happily announce mine, though nobody, I imagine, would be much interested.
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I don't have a post-grad. I have a graduate degree in International Relations though.
 
JayUtah said:
Then I reject your claim to expertise. You’ve been given several opportunities to exhibit proficiency in psychology but you’ve shied away from every one. Your objections rose no higher than what we expect from a disgruntled lay person.
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Please provide the post which you claim you are referring to. You have already been told my dissertation was on the subject of memory. When you said I 'clamed to be an expert in psychology' please provide the post in which you claim I said this so that we are not talking at cross purposes.
 
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