Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[JayUtah]

Where did she say that such temperatures and pressures require a lab?

From what i see, she just denied that it was due to an explosion (she says it wasn't explosive welding).

Yes, Vixen is misrepresenting the findings exactly the same way she misrepresented them when they were first published. She got them via a conspiracy theory site. We discussed her misrepresentation and debunked it conclusively at length previously, including from the perspective of forensic engineering and metallurgy. She's just trying to reboot it and maybe get another 5-10 pages of entertainment out of it.

 

[Mojo]

They were automatic beacons that had been switched off and untuned*. They were in full operative working order when checked the week before by the ship's electricians.

*They were found switched off, which was a surprise because they were supposed to emit a signal when submerged. The correct way to approach this is to find out why.

"Ignoring facts and claiming that you prefer the comfortable side of the story".

 

[Jack by the hedge]

You are not a passenger ferry regulated by SOLAS. You are not in 1994.

You are not able to show us an auto-activating EPIRB with an off switch.

 

[JayUtah]

The correct way to approach this is to find out why.

No. You don't have any experience or training in this kind of investigation. I do. The correct approach is to question the assumptions on which any expectation is based.

 

[Mojo]

Perhaps, but she did bring it up to support a claim of experience of maritime matters. In fact, it seems from what she's posted recently that she wasn't actually adrift on either occasion, just lost.

Which is hardly an unlikely thing to happen to someone who thought port and starboard were perpendicular.

 

[Vixen]

Where did she say that such temperatures and pressures require a lab?

From what i see, she just denied that it was due to an explosion (she says it wasn't explosive welding).

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

As an objective scientist, all she can do is tell you her results. She can tell you what did not cause an observed, measured and recorded result to a level of confidence that is statistically near certain. It isn't in her remit to interpret results any further than that. She can only report on what her scientific tests have found.

I'll have to see if I can find the quote about needing a lab to heat to a specified temperature.

 

[Vixen]

You are not able to show us an auto-activating EPIRB with an off switch.

There are tuition videos on youtube in how to set and inspect your auto-HRU fitted EPIRBS. If it were not possible to switch them off then the minute you lift them up for inspection, the signal will continue to go out to the satellites and there'll people racing to your rescue!

 

[JayUtah]

As an objective scientist, all she can do is tell you her results.

...which you then misrepresent and upon which draw your own ignorant conclusions.

We presented you with a more correct, more expert interpretation the last time you tried this. Can you summarize what we told you? You tried desperately to spin her findings to support the claim that an explosion had occurred, ignoring that she specifically disclaimed that any of her findings supported that hypothesis.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

They were automatic beacons that had been switched off and untuned*.

Show us which model you think they were and why.

You can't. You know why.

LOL at 'untuned'. More bluster.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

There are tuition videos on youtube in how to set and inspect your auto-HRU fitted EPIRBS. If it were not possible to switch them off then the minute you lift them up for inspection, the signal will continue to go out to the satellites and there'll people racing to your rescue!

I see nothing in this response about immersion switches. Imagine my surprise.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

.

Furthermore, Estonia’s distress beacons or EPIRBs had to be manually activated, something that did not happen. If they were activated, they would have made it immediately obvious that the ship had sunk and the location would have been clear. As a result, All EPIRBs were then required to be automatic, while it is considered that the accident played a key role to legislate Voyage Data Recorders

https://safety4sea.com/cm-ms-estonia-sinking-one-of-the-deadliest-accidents-in-european-waters/

8.4
Emergency Beacons (EPIRB)

The ESTONIA carried two emergency beacons (EPIRBs) of type Kannad 406F.

https://www.estoniaferrydisaster.net/estonia%20final%20report/chapter8.htm

Apparently Safety4Sea are 'Lads'.

 

[Mojo]

Apparently Safety4Sea are 'Lads'.

I suppose it's a sort of ad hominem.

 

[phiwum]

As an objective scientist, all she can do is tell you her results. She can tell you what did not cause an observed, measured and recorded result to a level of confidence that is statistically near certain. It isn't in her remit to interpret results any further than that. She can only report on what her scientific tests have found.

I'll have to see if I can find the quote about needing a lab to heat to a specified temperature.

That would be great.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

 

[Andy_Ross]

They were automatic beacons that had been switched off and untuned*. They were in full operative working order when checked the week before by the ship's electricians.

*They were found switched off, which was a surprise because they were supposed to emit a signal when submerged. The correct way to approach this is to find out why.

There is only one switch. When it was used they operated as expected, at full power for the time expected for full batteries.

There's no such thing as 'untuned' they are sealed units with nothing to 'untune'
You made that up. It's a deliberate lie.

 

[Andy_Ross]

There are tuition videos on youtube in how to set and inspect your auto-HRU fitted EPIRBS. If it were not possible to switch them off then the minute you lift them up for inspection, the signal will continue to go out to the satellites and there'll people racing to your rescue!

Complete bollocks, you made that up

All you can do to 'inspect' them is ensure there is no damage to the exterior and test the battery.
Anything else is done by the manufacturer.
At set intervals you return them to the manufacturer for an exchange unit with a new battery.

They will not activate unless you operate the switch
For an immersion activated unit you can activate the switch or immerse them in water.

Lifting them up does nothing.
Why do tell obvious lies

 

[JayUtah]

All you can do to 'inspect' them is ensure there is no damage to the exterior and test the battery.
Anything else is done by the manufacturer.

The last time we corrected Vixen's EPIRB ignorance, I posted the procedure used by the U.S. Coast Guard to verify actual radio emission. Nothing involved the device automatically activating when it's removed from some holder. There is a manual on-switch and an immersion switch. You can have an EPIRB (manual or automatic) without the float-free mount. Vixen is just making up what she needs to seem true in order to keep everyone on the hook to entertain her.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Yes, it was all gone through at great length.
We even covered the types of signal transmitted and the coverage of satellite and surface stations that receive the signals, plus the difference between aircraft and marine beacond

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Oh hey Vixen, why haven't you responded to me? I'd really like a response to my two posts pointing out where you claimed something that turned out to not be true.

 

[Vixen]

Show us which model you think they were and why.

You can't. You know why.

LOL at 'untuned'. More bluster.

We had this conversation before. Tuned was a direct translation from the Finnish.

As reported in HS and directly quoting Kari Lehtola Chairman of JAIC:

Turma's International Commission of Inquiry has investigated the activities of the emergency buoys that drifted off the Estonian coast. The buoys' batteries were fully charged, but they could not send anything untuned, says Commissioner Kari Lehtola.

The committee closed the two-day meeting on Friday in Helsinki.



The so-called EPIRB emergency buoys had been recently serviced and had been placed in place in accordance with the rules. However, during the installation phase, the activation of the buoys was forgotten: the protective cover must be opened and turned on the coupling head. Activation of the emergency buoy was one of the tasks of radio electricians in Estonia, of which there were two on board.

Technical expert explains that in those days, setting the EPIRB was slightly different from now;

In the past, EPIRBs could be in a "cage" that was a frame with a pressure trigger. Many times still sprung so that when the pressure release was released, the frame was "shot" off the buoy. Many current plastic cases work in the same way.

EPIRBs in Estonia did not have a test switch as in the current ones. That type was placed in a horizontal position and it fired after being upright long enough.

The Estonian spark had inspected the buoys' activities about a week before the accident and by then those had been operating normally. Those Kannads were tested as follows: the buoy's "cage" was carefully opened and the buoy was raised. When the indicator light started flashing, the cap was opened and the switch was turned to the OFF position. In that case, the alarm had not yet left, but the buoy "
Both EPIRBs in Estonia were turned off when found, would the buoys be left untuned after the test?

Here is a youtube video showing how to set an EPIRB after changing the HRU.

 

[Vixen]

Apparently Safety4Sea are 'Lads'.

Unfortunately, the 'editorial team' that wrote the article haven't provided a source.

The Kannad 406F was the prototype - the 406 referring to the Mhz as set out in the SOLAS regulations that came into force in Aug 1993 pursuant to the Herald of Free Enterprise inquiry.

'F' signifies it is a 'free-floating' model.

CHAPTER III Reg 6 Section 2.3

NOTING that the Conference of Contracting Governments to the
International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea, 1974 (SOLAS),
on the global maritime distress and safety system (GMDSS Conference, 1988)
adopted regulation IV/7.1.6 of the 1988 SOLAS amendments, applicable not
later than 1 August 1993, requiring the carriage of a float-free satellite
EPIRB on every ship as part of the global maritime distress and safety system,

https://wwwcdn.imo.org/localresourc...MOResolutions/AssemblyDocuments/A.696(17).pdf
<snip>
RECOMMENDS Governments: (a) to ensure, as part of national type approval procedures, that any new type of 406 MHz satellite EPIRB to be deployed on board ships' h tested to confirm that it is in accordance with the IMO performance standards for 406 MHz EPIRBs (resolution A.695(17));

What is 'Float Free'?

"Float-free EPIRB
It can activate itself and float free to the water's surface. It activates when a vessel is submerged to a depth of one to four metres underwater. A float-free EPIRB can also be manually removed from its bracket and manually activated without it being submerged in water.22 Sept 2021"

EPIRB requirements—find out what the changes mean for ..https://www.amsa.gov.au/safety-navi...tivate itself and,it being submerged in water.