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Moderated Using wrong pronouns= violence??

What gets me is how absolutely pointless telling us is, in this context. Nothing about your biological sex changes the strength or value of your arguments. Even if you made an argument based on appeal to your biological sex, we have no way of knowing whether you truly have the standing to make such an argument, or are just pretending, to try to give your argument more weight.

And nothing about your gender self-identity matters either. Name one thing other than which pronouns you prefer, that's supposed to change about how I perceive you, once you tell me which pronouns you prefer.

I bet you can't. I bet you can state your gender identity, but you can't describe what it actually means or what anyone else is supposed to do or think or feel about it. But you go ahead and post your preferred pronouns anyway, even though they don't actually matter for anything we do here. They don't actually matter for anything anyone does, anywhere in western civilization, other than the circular activity of using preferred pronouns because you're being asked to use preferred pronouns.

The only serious exception to this that I've seen so far in this thread - relevant to the topic of the thread, even - is if you're legitimately suicidal at the thought of someone accidentally "misgendering" you. Which, if that's the case, you need medical help, not social engineering.

I dunno, man. If I was constantly being referred to as a she, I can see that getting under my skin after a bit. I imagine it's the same for a trans person, except that they have to deal with looking down and seeing the wrong junk on top of it.
 
Personally I'm pretty strongly motivated by not to be a jerk. It's one reason that I don't tend to talk about politics or religion with friends. When you start contradicting people, they often take offense. A couple of days ago I was having dinner with some friends and I made an offhand comment about homelessness in San Fransisco being related to high housing prices. Another friend started in about how it's really just lowlifes coming in from out of state to take advantage of California's good weather and soft on crime policies. Rather than offend him, I just changed the subject. A week before that at another dinner one guy brings up how impressed he was by RFK Jr. and how we should be worried about vaccines, etc. I have pretty strong opinions about that, but rather than be a jerk, I just left the subject alone, and we quickly started talking about other things.

While I'm motivated by not wanting to be a jerk, I'm also motived by the truth. There's a part of me that wanted to get into an argument about those subjects, but in the end I decided not to offend anyone. But I'm still not entirely sure what the right reaction is.

In a similar vein, I'd probably use someone's preferred pronouns even when they seemed to be contrary to fact, but the part of me that's motived by wanting to state the truth would recoil slightly.

it's really the kind of person that puts a compulsively stubborn need to always be technically correct that suffers the social consequences. and this is a person who, really, should probably get used to that if that's the philosophy they're living their life by.

anyway, you're allowed to be a jerk if you want to. people are allowed to judge you for it. but you have to own it too, you don't get to weasel your way out of being judged by being technically correct, just makes you seem like more of a jerk.
 
"You're a jerk if you don't use words the way I tell you!" - People who definitely aren't jerks
 
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Because no one has given an argument yet. So far all we've seen is "Be nice!" by which you mean "Conform to my moral norms!" An actual argument would proceed from generally shared moral premises, such as avoidance of harm...snip
I'll have a go at that.
I would simply tell the student that us humans have evolved the ability to overthink everything and that gender is now an independant variable of sex.

Think of it, dear student, like a sticker you stick on each day, most people keep the same sticker but some people notice the sticker and aren't happy with it so want a better suited sticker.
Dear student, notice the stickers are going above the sex and not replacing it.
So don't get your panties in a bunch about all the gender shennanigans, the're just stickers.

Enjoy your stay.
Dean of university.
 
it's really the kind of person that puts a compulsively stubborn need to always be technically correct that suffers the social consequences. and this is a person who, really, should probably get used to that if that's the philosophy they're living their life by.

anyway, you're allowed to be a jerk if you want to. people are allowed to judge you for it. but you have to own it too, you don't get to weasel your way out of being judged by being technically correct, just makes you seem like more of a jerk.


Yeah, when people attempt to 'rules lawyer' out of something we all more or less agree is rude behavior, it usually falls apart when normal assumed caveats get brought back in.

'Violence is wrong.' Oh yeah, what about defensive war or a bear attack?

'Black lives matter.' Oh yeah, well all lives matter.

'Don't be rude.' Oh yeah, what about speaking out against child marriages?

I for one haven't argued that politeness is always controlling. There can in fact be utility in being rude. Pushback can help stop the normalizing of very dangerous and harmful things, like child marriage or anthropogenic global warming denial or racism or a host of other things. There are of course cost/benefit factors that can swing the level of justification one way or the other.

For pronoun use, setting aside my continued point that insisting on what you think regardless of what the subject says is more likely to impact cisgender people, one of the stumbling blocks for people is that while it is one of the absolute minimum ways to be humane to transgender people it is the first one that can be framed as requiring an action from people who oppose trans rights. 'Don't lynch them' (extreme example is extreme for illustration and not demonization like some demons will claim) is asking people to just not do something. Using the pronouns the person says are theirs is asking someone to actually act; when you speak say this word not that one.

Now with that issue the cost/benefit really isn't even remotely close. Being transgender is, as far as all the best current evidence shows, a valid lived condition. It is part of natural human variation like being left handed or homosexual or an introvert. Comparisons to things that aren't like that just don't apply to attempted 'rules lawyering' into 'being rude is justified'. Even those with 'concerns' aren't really losing anything by using the correct pronouns. They can still make arguments against transgender people in bathrooms or sports or government or schools or public life. Those are usually pretty stupid and rude on their own merits, but as many anti-trans advocates have told the really virulent transphobes, being obstinate about pronouns just doesn't help those at all.

People can try to pretend they're 'technically' justified to oppose taking what the subject says about their pronouns into account even if it might seem rude, but like with a person who insists my nephew isn't 'technically' my nephew, they're wrong even if they're right.
 
People keep using the phrase "correct pronouns" but won't say why their preferred usage is correct and the one we grew up with is incorrect. Have the dictionaries even caught up yet?
 
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Anyone can wear clothes of any gender.

Yes, people are allowed to wear whatever the hell clothes they want.

But let's not play coy - female bodies are built and shaped differently than male bodies. There are some elements of clothing that are sex-specific and built specifically for male or female body parts. And even for the basics, they're cut differently.

So yes, people *can* buy whatever they want, but the clothing itself is built to accommodate sexually dimorphic forms.
 
"You're a jerk if you don't use words the way I tell you!" - People who definitely aren't jerks

People keep using the phrase "correct pronouns" but won't say why their preferred usage is correct and the one we grew up with is incorrect. Have the dictionaries even caught up yet?

Hey, look, the exact kind of attempt I was talking about.

Yes they have. You pretending their arguments don't exist is pointless.
 
You pretending their arguments don't exist is pointless.
Why should the freshman at CU Boulder stop assigning pronouns based on sex? Point me to an argument, something beyond "Be polite according to my new norm of politeness which we made up on Tumblr."
 
Think of it, dear student, like a sticker you stick on each day, most people keep the same sticker but some people notice the sticker and aren't happy with it so want a better suited sticker.
Dear student, notice the stickers are going above the sex and not replacing it.
So don't get your panties in a bunch about all the gender shennanigans, the're just stickers.
The sticker analogy seems to assume that students ought to upgrade their pronoun usage from the traditional heuristic based on sex to match the metaphorical sticker someone is wearing. (At campus mixers, these are often literal stickers.) What young Carl is asking, though, is why he needs to change the words he uses in order to match the stickers. Is this just about being polite and not making waves? If so, the argument is basically just "Conform to our local norms or else face social disapproval." This is a pretty common argument, really, and it works on people who want to fit in.
 
Right, you're entitled to make the call over what Izzard's pronouns are but others don't have the same agency.
Other people can call Izzard whatever the hell pronouns they want - I'm not attempting to dictate what language other people use.


Your comfort is more important than either the subject's or the listener's. I'm well aware of your stance that disagreeing with you is rude. It isn't a winning argument because it rests on your view being given privilege entirely, which generally isn't very convincing when it comes to base level politeness outside of things having to do with one's own body or property.

:eye-poppi

:dl:
 
I dunno, man. If I was constantly being referred to as a she, I can see that getting under my skin after a bit.
I can, too. I think it's a totally reasonable response to being constantly accidentally misgendered.

But getting annoyed or frustrated about being accidentally misgendered all the time isn't the same as being driven to suicide over it.

Like that Bob Seger lyric in "Turn the Page", about getting harassed in bars because of his long hair - "is that a woman, or a man?" Dude's being intentionally misgendered by bigots because of his genderqueer hairstyle. He's clearly bothered enough about it to call it out in his contribution to the "touring in a rock band sucks" sub-genre. If he were bothered enough about it to seriously consider ending his life? You'd strongly urge him to seek mental health support. You'd tell him social engineering may or may not fix this problem in his lifetime, and meanwhile he needs to seek help for dealing with it.

Anyway, this controversy would be a lot different if it were actually about people who have been diagnosed with gender dysphoria and their doctor has prescribed social transition as the current best medical procedure for mitigating suicidal ideation arising from dysphoric distress.
 
lol ok man
If you want to use pronouns to map to subjective states of consciousness in human beings, that's just fine with me. If you want to use pronouns the same way we do on all other mammals, that's just fine with me. I'm not here to tell anyone what heuristics they ought to use when assigning pronouns to nouns, all I ask is that it is obvious which pronouns point to which nouns.

All that said, your argument is rubbish. It is often hurtful to say true things which people don't want to hear, such as "George Washington wasn't a born again Christian," or "Mohammed did not ascend to Heaven on a winged horse," or "Jesus wasn't really a demigod," or "It was really a bad idea to give Uncle Joe a tube of horse paste instead of a vaccine."

Skeptics of all people should know that sometimes people value their feelings more than the truth, that's what keeps cold readers and faith healers and quack medical celebs in business.
 
The sticker analogy seems to assume that students ought to upgrade their pronoun usage from the traditional heuristic based on sex to match the metaphorical sticker someone is wearing. (At campus mixers, these are often literal stickers.) What young Carl is asking, though, is why he needs to change the words he uses in order to match the stickers. Is this just about being polite and not making waves? If so, the argument is basically just "Conform to our local norms or else face social disapproval." This is a pretty common argument, really, and it works on people who want to fit in.
My sticker analogy was about reassuring Carl that people are talking about their stickers and not their sex, to reassure Carl that he's not losing his mind and that sex is still sex.

It wasn't about Carl having to use the stickers, it was more about informing him that they're just stickers and he can use stickerless words like them they their they're etc and not have to deal with all these arguments about stickers.
 
I don't get upset by changing usage or definition of words. After all, the word "girl" was apparently gender/sex neutral until the late 1500s. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girl) But I understand how some might disagree.

If someone provides me with pronouns, I will try to use them. If they don't, I will default to the ones that seem appropriate to me. This is based on my perception, not particularly aligned with sex or gender in particular. If I perceive someone as a cis or trans woman, I'll use "she." If I perceive someone as a cis or trans man, I'll use "he." If I'm unsure, I'll avoid using a gendered reference until I have more information.

Is it possible I will accidentally misgender someone? Absolutely. I've been misgendered before, when I was eight and had long hair. (I don't recall ever having misgendered someone myself.) When that happens, there's an apology and a bit of embarrassment on both sides. Then move forward.

Non-binary people are really where I see the most likelihood of getting it wrong. On the show Nancy Drew, there is a new character that is non-binary. But they are biologically female and present and act typically female. The only reason I know they are non-binary is because she told another character on their first date.

I don't understand why someone would use one set of pronouns when a person is present and then shift to another set when they are out of earshot. That seems...weird.

I get that some see pronouns as a concession towards the "trans women are women" statement and that they see that as a step towards "I'm a woman, so you can't stop me from being in women's spaces/sports leagues/etc," but I don't fully agree. There's also "I'll consider you a woman, but you have a circumstance that makes you ineligible for <whatever> due to your sex, regardless of gender."
 
If you want to use pronouns to map to subjective states of consciousness in human beings, that's just fine with me. If you want to use pronouns the same way we do on all other mammals, that's just fine with me. I'm not here to tell anyone what heuristics they ought to use when assigning pronouns to nouns, all I ask is that it is obvious which pronouns point to which nouns.

All that said, your argument is rubbish. It is often hurtful to say true things which people don't want to hear, such as "George Washington wasn't a born again Christian," or "Mohammed did not ascend to Heaven on a winged horse," or "Jesus wasn't really a demigod," or "It was really a bad idea to give Uncle Joe a tube of horse paste instead of a vaccine."

Skeptics of all people should know that sometimes people value their feelings more than the truth, that's what keeps cold readers and faith healers and quack medical celebs in business.

not that any of what you wrote makes you seem anything less than very concerned about how everyone else is using pronouns, my argument is that while you're certainly allowed to say and do what you want, people have a right to judge you for your words and actions and that you guys don't appear to be coping with that very well.

the college freshman's pamphlet argument about not being hurtful to others is the one you're losing to.
 
You can, in principle, probably change how fat you are. You can change your diet, get more excercise, have agency in the determination of your weight. I cannot decide to be "she".

You can LITERALLY decide to be a "she". All you need to do is make a statement that you identify as a "she". All you need to do is alter your user title so it says "she/her".

That's all you need to do, and not a damned thing more.
 

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