Cont: Transwomen are not women part XII (also merged)

[JoeMorgue]

Can we safely assume that it doesn't matter what place or service we swap in here?

Gyms or swimming ponds or music festivals or golf leagues or locker rooms or sleeper cars or Jjimjilbang^WP or what-have-you?

We don't have a concise term for "Publicly accessible place but one where a level of privacy is to be expected" and it is making this discussion a bit cumbersome.

 

[lobosrul5]

I've already covered this, but it usually takes more than "membership required" to be considered a private club in the context of being exempt from anti-discrimination law.

Being a women's only gym, even one that requires membership, is probably not exclusive enough to count as a true private club in the eyes of the law.

Private club means an organization, whether incorporated or not, which is the owner, lessee, or occupant of a building or portion thereof used exclusively for club purposes at all times, which is operated solely for a recreational, fraternal, social, patriotic, political, benevolent, or athletic purpose, but not for pecuniary gain, and which only sells alcoholic beverages incidental to its operation. The affairs and management of the organization are conducted by a board of directors, executive committee, or similar body chosen by the members at an annual meeting. The organization has established bylaws and/or a constitution to govern its activities. The organization has been granted an exemption from the payment of federal income tax as a club under 26 U.S.C. Section 501.

https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/private-club

I can't see how it wouldn't fit the legal definition, unless its a for-profit enterprise.

 

[d4m10n]

Okay but it's not unfair or bigoted to ask what the point is of all these terms if every time we ask for clarification on what they mean or how they work we just get a glib "LOL don't worry, it's not your concern" style retort.

Which terms? I'm pretty sure I was using the usual terms in the usual way.

 

[d4m10n]

We don't have a concise term for "Publicly accessible place but one where a level of privacy is to be expected" and it is making this discussion a bit cumbersome.

Even if female people wanted their own spaces for reasons unrelated to modesty or privacy, I'd be inclined to let them have their spaces without prescribing public policy permitting people with penises.

 

[Ziggurat]

I wish anti-discrimination policies were rigorously enforced, including against women's only gyms

You have never said what harm women-only gyms do.

I understand and am sympathetic for the desire for women's only gyms

No you don't and no you aren't.

but the need for them is a pretty unambiguous sign of societal failure to enforce the reasonable norm that women should be able to exist in public without being sexually harassed.

Women don't get to have nice things because they wouldn't need them if the world was perfect. Galaxy brain right there.

 

[Cain]

SOME men do not want gay men in their bathroom or locker room. This is a public policy issue, and they've been told too bad dude, homophobia no longer has a place in our society.

Not really. The central problem with discriminating against gay men is enforcement. How do you know someone is gay? Would they self-ID?

The trans bathroom debate shouldn't even be a thing. There are so many other reforms that need to take place: Stalls should have red and green lights overhead to indicate occupied vs. unoccupied. Eliminate all gaps in the stalls. Play music to drown out butt-horns and splashing. These designs are not utopian; they've been adopted in civilized areas. Ideally, we would also just eliminate sex segregation, but pushing for that change now might get one branded as "transphobic." The simple fact of the matter is that women's restrooms tend to have longer lines. Universal bathrooms would reduce wait times for women.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Private club means an organization, whether incorporated or not, which is the owner, lessee, or occupant of a building or portion thereof used exclusively for club purposes at all times, which is operated solely for a recreational, fraternal, social, patriotic, political, benevolent, or athletic purpose, but not for pecuniary gain, and which only sells alcoholic beverages incidental to its operation. The affairs and management of the organization are conducted by a board of directors, executive committee, or similar body chosen by the members at an annual meeting. The organization has established bylaws and/or a constitution to govern its activities. The organization has been granted an exemption from the payment of federal income tax as a club under 26 U.S.C. Section 501.

https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/private-club

I can't see how it wouldn't fit the legal definition, unless its a for-profit enterprise.

We are talking about for-profit organizations.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Women don't get to have nice things because they wouldn't need them if the world was perfect. Galaxy brain right there.

It's really a matter of not robbing Peter to pay Paul. You don't let women engage in sex discrimination as a recourse for them facing sex discrimination, that's just kicking the can down the road.

 

[lobosrul5]

We are talking about for-profit organizations.

WHAT IS THE FEMALE FIGHT CLUB?
The Female Fight Club, a non-profit fitness club exclusively for women located in the Riverdale section of the Bronx in NYC,

https://femalefightclubnyc.com/

Golds is for profit. But they don't operate womens only gyms, they operate womens only areas in their gyms if I'm not mistaken. ETA: it would be pretty silly to even argue against such things. My gym has a daycare for people to leave their kids. Can I sue them because I'm not allowed in that section of the gym, I'm being discriminated against whoa is me!

 

[lobosrul5]

Not really. The central problem with discriminating against gay men is enforcement. How do you know someone is gay? Would they self-ID?

The trans bathroom debate shouldn't even be a thing. There are so many other reforms that need to take place: Stalls should have red and green lights overhead to indicate occupied vs. unoccupied. Eliminate all gaps in the stalls. Play music to drown out butt-horns and splashing. These designs are not utopian; they've been adopted in civilized areas. Ideally, we would also just eliminate sex segregation, but pushing for that change now might get one branded as "transphobic." The simple fact of the matter is that women's restrooms tend to have longer lines. Universal bathrooms would reduce wait times for women.

Sounds rather Japanese.

 

[Samson]

And again we're back the impossible triangle.

1. The people with the penises must be kept separate from the people with the vaginas in some cases for the safety/privacy/competitiveness/etc of the people with vaginas.
2. We can't check for penis and vaginas at the literal or metaphorical door because we all agree that would just be horrible and putting it on the honor system would be pointless.
3. We've removed everything external that identifies a person with a penis or a person with a vagina. People with specific genitals are not expected or required to look, act, identity, present, code, etc in any specific way.

And again this is not about what anyone thinks about any one of the tent polls. You just have, HAVE, ******* HAVE to accept that all 3 of them can't be meaningfully, functionally true on a societal level at the same time.

At least one of them has to go, or at least be minimized or changed to a radical way.

Maybe a verified photo of one's genitals alongside the face on the passport would work.
This could extend to all forms of photo ID.
I am not sure if I am being serious.

 

[Ziggurat]

It's really a matter of not robbing Peter to pay Paul. You don't let women engage in sex discrimination as a recourse for them facing sex discrimination, that's just kicking the can down the road.

Perfect is the enemy of good.

And you still haven't said what harm is done.

 

[d4m10n]

1. The people with the penises must be kept separate from the people with the vaginas in some cases for the safety/privacy/competitiveness/etc of the people with vaginas.

There are at least three approaches here, not just two. Fundamentalists and (most) conservatives will say "must," libertarians will say "may," and progressive social justice activists will say "must not." Both the conservatives and the progressives suffer from the belief that everyone needs to do things in a way that upholds their own values. Some of us are okay with letting business owners do their own thing, especially when that means giving historically oppressed groups of people a space for themselves.

 

[Brainster]

The primary obstacle to male gyms isn't political opposition but market share. There's far less demand for male gyms than female gyms. Most guys either don't care or want mixed, so going all-male is a really hard business model, much harder than all-female. But they have existed.

The feminists largely forced the males-only clubs to admit women back in the 1980s and 1990s. There was a big push because the idea was that these male bastions were where the patriarchy lurked. The NY Athletic Club admitted their first female members in 1989, after 121 years as a sausage fest. Augusta National actually made it to 2012 before they admitted two women (one was Condoleezza Rice).

 

[LondonJohn]

Trans rights activists want sex segregation. As you know and as has been pointed out ad nauseam.

According to you (and JoeMorgue) trans rights activists are racists and homophobes.

Or just maybe your pathetic reflexive insistent arguments have shot themselves in the foot. What toxic bile indeed.

Trans rights activists want gender segregation, not sex segregation. But aside from that (and aside from my rejection of your strangely-thought-out position in which you claim trans advocates are racists and homophobes), thanks for illustrating my point about this thread.

 

[lionking]

Trans rights activists want gender segregation, not sex segregation. But aside from that (and aside from my rejection of your strangely-thought-out position in which you claim trans advocates are racists and homophobes), thanks for illustrating my point about this thread.

What is your view of Women’s Shelters, where women are protected from violence and predation? Mermaids objects to them being sex segregated. And you?

 

[Chanakya]

Maybe a verified photo of one's genitals alongside the face on the passport would work.
This could extend to all forms of photo ID.
I am not sure if I am being serious.

That's actually a brilliant idea. For a sketch.

One obvious wrinkle that would need to ironed out is how to properly depict size. On the other hand, not ironing it out opens up interesting plot/dialog points in the sketch, so maybe keep away the iron after all.


eta: What a brilliant idea, Samson. Hmm, like you say Cheese when you click this pic, what would you say for the other pic? ...Depends, I suppose, on whether you're the sort that 'smiles' for the camera!


eta: I just can't --- CAN'T --- walk away from this outstanding idea. How does the idea of being of a billionaire strike you? Not too bad, right? If this isn't a killer idea for the dating app to skewer all other dating apps, then I don't know what is.

All we need to do now --- "we", you and I both, remember that, without my loud (raucous?) you'd have forgotten all about it, like Einstein daydreaming about the speed of light and weird freak twins aging at different rates, and going back to designing filing cabinets for the patent office, or whatever it is he did --- all WE need to do now, is think up an ENORMOUSLY brilliant name for our soon to be HUGELY successful dating app.

 

[Cain]

The feminists largely forced the males-only clubs to admit women back in the 1980s and 1990s. There was a big push because the idea was that these male bastions were where the patriarchy lurked. The NY Athletic Club admitted their first female members in 1989, after 121 years as a sausage fest. Augusta National actually made it to 2012 before they admitted two women (one was Condoleezza Rice).

As I vaguely recall, Christopher Hitchens argued that there was a difference between women being prohibited from becoming members of any golf clubs in Georgia versus being prohibited from just one (Augusta). But isn't Augusta by far the most prestigious? Appropriate criticisms were leveled at Obama for talking shop with men when he made his golf rounds.

Unrelatedly, Hitchens has also argued that conservative women are sexier, citing as examples [trigger warning]

Margaret Thatcher and Jeane Kirkpatrick. Ew. He claimed the latter "made Phyllis Schlafly look like a faggot."

 

[Brainster]

As I vaguely recall, Christopher Hitchens argued that there was a difference between women being prohibited from becoming members of any golf clubs in Georgia versus being prohibited from just one (Augusta). But isn't Augusta by far the most prestigious? Appropriate criticisms were leveled at Obama for talking shop with men when he made his golf rounds.

Unrelatedly, Hitchens has also argued that conservative women are sexier, citing as examples [trigger warning]

Margaret Thatcher and Jeane Kirkpatrick. Ew. He claimed the latter "made Phyllis Schlafly look like a faggot."

Let's just say that Hitch had different tastes in women from me. That said, even AI agrees--conservative women seem happier and more attractive than liberal women.

 

[TomB]

My wife used to be case manager at a men's shelter. (Homeless shelter, not abuse.) They also took in men given parole. There was another men's shelter across town.

There are/were also women's shelters. I know one was for "women in transition."

Targeting the specific demographic makes managing the shelter easier and reduces the need for monitoring and security. Makes sleeping arrangements simpler. (The shelter had shared rooms with a couple bunk beds. It wasn't cots arranged in a large common room.) There was no "security" staff.

It seems like some feel that these targeted shelters should be illegal?