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I walmart evil?

And I chuckle when people whine about Wal-Mart putting the mom and pop store out of business. Kind of like long ago complaining that those carmakers will put the horse and buggymakers out of business.

Life moves on.

And MallWart continues to play fast and loose with medical care, part-timers, has crappy merchandise for not that great prices, the ones I've been in (Austintown, Oh, and somewhere in South Dakota to name two) were not particularly clean or polite, and I can't imagine why anyone shops there.

I don't.

So what am I missing here?
 
Agreed. Maybe a couple fewer "hates" from me, but that's pretty much my take. I do shop at Walmart, just not as much as I would otherwise.
Heh. And here I have to confess to a little false sanctimony. I live in New York City. There ain't a Wal*Mart for miles; I'd have no idea where to find one. So in terms of actually taking advantage of their price or selection, I pretty much can't. Also, I make a good living. It's pretty darn easy for *me* to say that customer service and quality goods are worth the extra dollars -- I've got them.

That said, I'd go to Wal*Mart if they sold quote tags. Then I'd mail them to New Ager as a special gift.
 
Heh. And here I have to confess to a little false sanctimony. I live in New York City. There ain't a Wal*Mart for miles; I'd have no idea where to find one. So in terms of actually taking advantage of their price or selection, I pretty much can't. Also, I make a good living. It's pretty darn easy for *me* to say that customer service and quality goods are worth the extra dollars -- I've got them.

That said, I'd go to Wal*Mart if they sold quote tags. Then I'd mail them to New Ager as a special gift.

(chuckle)

There's a Wallmart in Sucasunna, NJ, on Rt. 10 roughly a half mile east of the junction of US46 and NJ 10. :)

Yeah, that's a ways. And you have to get out of the city via car. There's also a BJ's Wholesale Club just north of 46 one traffic light east of the intersection of 10 and 46. You can guess already which one I used to use.

You aren't missing much, Manny, I know you don't think much of me, but I think you can take that one pretty safely.
 
Heh. And here I have to confess to a little false sanctimony. I live in New York City. There ain't a Wal*Mart for miles; I'd have no idea where to find one. So in terms of actually taking advantage of their price or selection, I pretty much can't. Also, I make a good living. It's pretty darn easy for *me* to say that customer service and quality goods are worth the extra dollars -- I've got them.

That said, I'd go to Wal*Mart if they sold quote tags. Then I'd mail them to New Ager as a special gift.
Funny. I'm sure I'll go to Walmart more once they start carrying Titleist Pro-V1*s. Until then, I can continue to say "Walmart sucks" and still sleep at night.
 
And MallWart continues to play fast and loose with medical care, part-timers, has crappy merchandise for not that great prices, the ones I've been in (Austintown, Oh, and somewhere in South Dakota to name two) were not particularly clean or polite, and I can't imagine why anyone shops there.

My wife and I call it "The Pithole of the Earth." Not clean, not polite, cluttered all over with crap in the aisles and people, and that includes the parking lot.

It's kind of like eating at Golden Corral. Even if you can figure out a reason why you might want to go (all you can eat steak night, good desert bar), it's such a lousy place to be with all the people and trashiness that you want to avoid it with all your might.

I used to go every once in a while, when I lived 2 blocks away and the nearest alternative was miles, but only then when I couldn't get what I needed at Ace hardware. Now that Walmart is across town, I go to KMart for such things. Yeah, KMart sucks, but it has more inventory than the grocery store. Moreover, the people in my new hometown, including those at KMart, are really friendly, so it's a pleasant experience there, if nothing else.

If I want nicer stuff, I go to Target, but that is as far away as WalMart so I don't get there often, either.
 
One problem I have noticed that many opponents of Walmart like to mention, and some have broached the subject here, is concern over fair wage and health coverage for its employees. Walmart is under fire because it is a great big DEEP POCKET. Everybody (of course not actually everybody) wants a piece of big, bad, oppressive, and RICH Walmart. A simple google search (and yes, for the moment I am being lazy) produces a large number of websites listing complaints against McDonald's, Burger King, Taco Bell, and other fast food giants regarding their poor pay and health coverage. Why is there no outcry to topple the behemoths of Grease and end the rampant mistreatment of fast food employees. These employees are just as much a drain on society in regards to government assistance as Walmart employees, why then, is Walmart the EVIL CONGLOMERATE whose sites are set on total domination of the US economy?

Many here have said it and I will second, third, and fourth it. Our economy is capitalist in nature, that means if you do not like it, shop somewhere else; that is what having competition is all about. "Speak with your wallet" is a good phrase for those who oppose Walmart. If people just stopped shopping there, they would start losing the crippling influence they currently have.

All of that said. GO WALMART. Hey, I have a sweatshop of magical elves working for me, and Walmart still saves me money.


Santa
 
I'm divided on the issue, since I'm not certain Wal-Mart is actual "gainful employment." Sure it's much better for everyone than if the employees were just sitting on the dole, but you and I are still paying paying for their healthcare and other support services.
12,000 people who applied for those jobs disagree w/ you. Apparently, they've decided that it was better to work at Walmart than other places in the area, or that it beat having no job. And please, show your data for the percentage of Walmart employees lacking health care and "other support services" w/ other employees in the same market segment, including mon amd pop stores.

My wife, when she was a doctor in a small town, hated to shop at the local Wal-Mart. She worked in the Federally-funded free clinic and saw too many of her patients working in the store.
And how many of her patients worked elsewhere, and what are the exact percentages? A skeptic would want some hard numbers rather than bias-prone anecdotal "evidence". Perhaps she didn't shop much at the local lumber yard, or chatted up a conversation at the grain mill, or the many other small businesses that don't offer even the level of health care available from Walmart?

Besides the fact I generally hated to shop there, too, I would say the biggest concern I have are the allegations of union-busting. If Wal-Mart can use its collective buying power to influence prices, why can't employees do the same?
Why can't they?
 
You can see the PBS special online http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/view/

I agree that walmarts business practices are bad but I dont really blame them for it. US consumers demand Chinese made products at any and all cost to our own economy. If walmart didnt do business the way they do some other company would and put them out of business. We have decided as a nation that child labor in some 3rd world mud hole is worth it to save $1 on a punch bowl.

Americans demand slave labor, sweatshops, and outsourcing. Walmart is only giving us what we want.

Well, you can give them some of the blame. WalMart is pretty ruthless,a nd has really taken things to a new level.

Trade policy hasn't helped at all though. Companies can go to places like China now and abuse workers and the environment as much as they please. Anyone who tries to operate ethically in these conditions can't compete, so only the biggest and meanest survive.

You make valid points though. Like you said, most people don't really care as long as they are getting cheap TV's. Until maybe they are outsourced too.

I wonder how many of those union factory workers that were making 60k a year considered themselves conservatives before they got laid off? yes, WelMart does get too much blame.
 
One problem I have noticed that many opponents of Walmart like to mention, and some have broached the subject here, is concern over fair wage and health coverage for its employees. Walmart is under fire because it is a great big DEEP POCKET. Everybody (of course not actually everybody) wants a piece of big, bad, oppressive, and RICH Walmart. A simple google search (and yes, for the moment I am being lazy) produces a large number of websites listing complaints against McDonald's, Burger King, Taco Bell, and other fast food giants regarding their poor pay and health coverage. Why is there no outcry to topple the behemoths of Grease and end the rampant mistreatment of fast food employees.

To be fair, McDonalds, BK, and TB are unlike WalMart in that they don't put family owned restaurants out of business by selling the same items at low margin prices.

Hardware stores sell the same things that Walmart sells. No on in their right mind would want to serve the same food as McDonalds. Moreover, fast food joints provide much more than just low prices (which they don't even do so much anymore), because if you want a hamburger, you can get it a lot more conveniently at a fast food joint than at the local diner.

OTOH, if you want a light bulb, Walmart is about as non-convenient as you can get, given the hassle you have to go through to get it. The only thing worse is probably Lowes.
 
I don't shop at Walmart because I find the products to be junk. You get what you pay for and stuff made in China is of terrible quality. Though I suppose I avoid products made in China more than the stores that sell those products. Nike really makes me angry. Those shoes can be expensive and they fall apart in a few weeks (my experience). Cheap prices or not, I don't think I get my money's worth at Walmart.
 
12,000 people who applied for those jobs disagree w/ you. Apparently, they've decided that it was better to work at Walmart than other places in the area, or that it beat having no job. And please, show your data for the percentage of Walmart employees lacking health care and "other support services" w/ other employees in the same market segment, including mon amd pop stores.

You're putting words into my mouth because they don't disagree with me. Obviously 12,000 people think that working at WalMart is better than their current condition. It doesn't mean working at Wal-Mart provides a living wage, or that all of a sudden the people who work there will no longer require public assistance.

And how many of her patients worked elsewhere, and what are the exact percentages? A skeptic would want some hard numbers rather than bias-prone anecdotal "evidence". Perhaps she didn't shop much at the local lumber yard, or chatted up a conversation at the grain mill, or the many other small businesses that don't offer even the level of health care available from Walmart?

Why can't they?

Most local employers in this small town didn't provide insurance for their lowest level employees. What does that have to do with whether or not Wal-Mart provides insurance for their employees? If I suppose I was arguing in matters of degree, Tyson is the biggest bastard in that area.

...what evidence are you asking for? That Wal-Mart doesn't provide insurance?

It might not be obvious to you, but people don't go to the free clinic unless they don't have insurance. If you have insurance, you go to a for-pay clinic where things can get done.

Yes, I admit it's not "evidence" - Should you need some, I will provide. Later. I have to leave.
 
To be fair, McDonalds, BK, and TB are unlike WalMart in that they don't put family owned restaurants out of business by selling the same items at low margin prices.

Isn't that pretty much the definition of fast food restaurant? McDonald's and others may not be aiming for high-end sit down places, but they sure do want everything else.

pgwenthold said:
Hardware stores sell the same things that Walmart sells. No on in their right mind would want to serve the same food as McDonalds. Moreover, fast food joints provide much more than just low prices (which they don't even do so much anymore), because if you want a hamburger, you can get it a lot more conveniently at a fast food joint than at the local diner.

OTOH, if you want a light bulb, Walmart is about as non-convenient as you can get, given the hassle you have to go through to get it. The only thing worse is probably Lowes.

I have actually purchased light bulbs from Walmart and I found them in the very conveniently labeled lighting section. It was quite easy in fact. What makes you believe a Walmart would make it difficult to purchase everyday household items?
 
I don't shop at Walmart because I find the products to be junk. You get what you pay for and stuff made in China is of terrible quality. Though I suppose I avoid products made in China more than the stores that sell those products. Nike really makes me angry. Those shoes can be expensive and they fall apart in a few weeks (my experience). Cheap prices or not, I don't think I get my money's worth at Walmart.

This is an argument that is used quite often, but much of the true reasoning behind it is lost. Though you do mention you rather avoid Chinese made products rather the stores selling them, I will address the premise behind the argument anyway.

I have a hard time believing the Pampers I purchase (cheaper than anywhere else) at Walmart were made in a Chinese sweatshop by 10 yr old blind beggars working for six pence a week, and the Pampers you buy at Target are made here in the USA by a blue collar family man with two cars, a mortgage, and a 401K program. Same goes for the Colgate toothpaste I buy, or the HP Photosmart camera, or the Hot Wheels, or the Mr. Clean, or Energizer batteries, or a whole host of other brand name products you can find less expensive at Walmart (many times at least). Walmart carries a myrad variety of brand choices and many of those are cheaply made and perhaps created in sweatshops, but I refuse to believe large corporation have two manufacturing hubs; the "International, bare bones, exploit the peasants" factory for Walmart, and the "American, support our working class and be sure to stamp it MADE IN THE USA" factory for everyone else, both of which make the same product. That is just a silly notion.

Santa
 
I have a hard time believing the Pampers I purchase (cheaper than anywhere else) at Walmart were made in a Chinese sweatshop by 10 yr old blind beggars working for six pence a week, and the Pampers you buy at Target are made here in the USA by a blue collar family man with two cars, a mortgage, and a 401K program. Same goes for the Colgate toothpaste I buy, or the HP Photosmart camera, or the Hot Wheels, or the Mr. Clean, or Energizer batteries, or a whole host of other brand name products you can find less expensive at Walmart (many times at least). Walmart carries a myrad variety of brand choices and many of those are cheaply made and perhaps created in sweatshops, but I refuse to believe large corporation have two manufacturing hubs; the "International, bare bones, exploit the peasants" factory for Walmart, and the "American, support our working class and be sure to stamp it MADE IN THE USA" factory for everyone else, both of which make the same product. That is just a silly notion.

Santa

And a big honkin' strawman, too.

But carry on.
 
And a big honkin' strawman, too.

But carry on.

Perhaps I have something wrong here, would you care to explain my alleged man of straw? I am simply pointing out that while Walmart may in fact carry items made in China, there is a whole other side to the coin. They carry many products which are either 1.) made here in the USA and they still sell them cheaper, or 2.) They sell the same products other stores do which also come from China. If number 2 is correct, perhaps Walmart should not be the only company people complain about. If number one is correct, well, that was my point anyway.


Santa
 
Perhaps I have something wrong here, would you care to explain my alleged man of straw? I am simply pointing out that while Walmart may in fact carry items made in China, there is a whole other side to the coin. They carry many products which are either 1.) made here in the USA and they still sell them cheaper, or 2.) They sell the same products other stores do which also come from China. If number 2 is correct, perhaps Walmart should not be the only company people complain about. If number one is correct, well, that was my point anyway.


Santa

Your strawman is here:

I refuse to believe large corporation have two manufacturing hubs; the "International, bare bones, exploit the peasants" factory for Walmart, and the "American, support our working class and be sure to stamp it MADE IN THE USA" factory for everyone else, both of which make the same product.

Since nobody holds that position, and it is indeed silly and easy to knock down, it is therefore, by definition, a strawman.
 
Your strawman is here:



Since nobody holds that position, and it is indeed silly and easy to knock down, it is therefore, by definition, a strawman.


Ah, I see. I apologize. My intent was not to imply this is someone's argument, it was really a jest at what lengths I believe a company would have to go to in order to more cheaply produce the same product in two places (in the US and in China). I can see where I went wrong with how I worded that.

BURN THE STRAWMAN, BURN HIM.

Santa
 
There's an opinion piece in my local paper today about this:
Amy Hill, director of public affairs for Wal-Mart's western region, told The Olympian that 51 percent of Wal-Mart's employees are enrolled in the company's health care plan. Another 24 percent of the employees are covered under their spouse's plan, under their parents' plan, or through the military, a second job or some other insurance plan.

Employees can cover themselves with a Wal-Mart health plan for as little as $23 a month, and the entire family can gain coverage for a monthly fee of $65, Hill said. The first three doctor visits are free, then employees must meet a $1,000 deductible.

Earlier this week, the Seattle Times reported that two state studies show that more than 3,100 Wal-Mart employees in Washington were enrolled in state-subsidized health coverage as of 2004, nearly twice as many as for any other company.

Hill says the numbers could be outdated because Wal-Mart increased the number of its employee health plans from eight to 18 last year, which generated a surge in enrollment from its 1.3 million workers. She said 30 percent of the employees who go to work for Wal-Mart had no health insurance before they came to the company.

“We are taking people off the uninsured rolls and getting them coverage,” she said.

What she doesn't have a good explanation for is the internal Wal-Mart memo that acknowledges that nearly half of the children of Wal-Mart employees are not covered by health insurance or are covered by Medicaid. She can say only that other businesses face a similar situation.

So I guess we need some fresh data? The sheer vastness of their work force should allow Wal-Mart to offer some good insurance options, although I know health insurance is expensive. However, if they are keeping workers' hours down with unfair labor practices, that might prevent a worker who wants insurance from qualifying to get it. They do have long wait times before a worker can apply - but that is pretty much standard for low-end retail jobs. It prevents people from taking a job, milking the insurance, and then moving to another job.

When I worked retail, I had crappy low pay and didn't have health coverage from my job. I was never full-time though.
Looking at that WakeUpWalmart.com site, I don't know why anyone would expect that one low-end retail worker should be able to support a family above poverty level, including health insurance. That doesn't seem realistic to me, and I was working retail in the 90s when there weren't a lot of Wal-Marts in my area.
It is possible to make good money in retail - the people who sell shoes at Nordstrom make a lot, etc. - so you can work yourself up to a better, more specialized job. I went into custom picture framing and I did better with those skills. But basic stocking/restocking at a big-box store never paid well, even before Wal-Mart was big in the areas where I've lived. And health insurance was hardly plentiful in Retail Land, especially at smaller businesses. I don't think we should compare Wal-Mart to some mythical beast, such as a low-end retail job that provides security and plenty for a small family, but to other everyday retail jobs.

I don't like the big subsidies and inducements Wal-Mart gets from government, but that's not unique to them, and I know the one near me paid for some infrastructure (roads leading to the store got some improvements). Cabela's is looking to park a store in my city and the city has to figure out how to pay for the needed infrastructure. Personally, I hope it goes through, and I hope Cabela's will spring for some of the needed road work.
 

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