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Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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TurkeysGhost said:
Don't you think you're exaggerating a bit? There aren't enough trans women to totally displace cis-gendered women athletes, even if you accept the assumption that they have some innate unfair advantage.
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If you don't accept this assumption, it is not an argument for allowing trans-women into female leagues, it's an argument for not having separate leagues in the first place.
 
TomB said:
While there are "non-elite" athletes competing in school sport, it is still the beginning of elite-level sports. That's the whole problem with the elite/non-elite distinction. There is no clear demarcation between the two.

School sports, even in Jr. High, are where college and professional recruitment begins.
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Feeding talent into the pros isn't the reason why the public funds school sports. It's an educational experience
 
TomB said:
If you don't accept this assumption, it is not an argument for allowing trans-women into female leagues, it's an argument for not having separate leagues in the first place.
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Setting aside other issues, this goes back to my other point. You won't have enough trans athletes in many schools to fill out a soccer team. Reporting of these states passing trans-exclusion laws are having the practical impact of kicking out like a handful of trans athletes in the entire state.
 
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TurkeysGhost said:
Reporting of these states passing trans-exclusion laws are having the practical impact of kicking out like a handful of trans athletes in the entire state.
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Is this handful being denied the opportunity to compete with other students who went through the same sort of puberty they did? If not, why characterize the impact as "kicking out" rather than "being permitted to compete with others of the same sex."
 
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TurkeysGhost said:
I was under the impression that high PT scores were useful for those seeking advancement and placement into specialty programs, so maxing out your PT score is desirable.
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The air force has minimum fitness requirements. These are tested annually, I think. There are different benchmarks for males vs. females. (I don't know what standard they apply to trans soldiers.) Each gender is also broken into nine different age groups. So there are eighteen different standards depending on sex (gender) and age. The tests are:

AF Fitness Test Options
Airmen are required to participate in one activity from each of the primary three groups: running, upper body strength, and core strength.

Here are your test options:

1.5-mile run or 20-meter HAMR (high aerobic multi-shuttle run)
Push-ups or hand-release push-ups
Sit-ups, cross-legged reverse crunches, or planks
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https://officerassignments.com/air-force-pt-test/#:~:text=2022%20Air%20Force%20Fitness%20Test%20Standards%20%26%20Score,...%204%20Air%20Force%20Fitness%20Test%20FAQs%20

Running, push-ups, and sit-ups, basically. Fitness in relation to the needs of the military are not the same as being an athlete in a particular sport.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
Feeding talent into the pros isn't the reason why the public funds school sports. It's an educational experience
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No. That's P.E. class.

Well, maybe you could call it vocational training that some portion of participants will turn into scholarships or careers.
 
TomB said:
The air force has minimum fitness requirements. These are tested annually, I think. There are different benchmarks for males vs. females. (I don't know what standard they apply to trans soldiers.) Each gender is also broken into nine different age groups. So there are eighteen different standards depending on sex (gender) and age. The tests are:


https://officerassignments.com/air-force-pt-test/#:~:text=2022%20Air%20Force%20Fitness%20Test%20Standards%20%26%20Score,...%204%20Air%20Force%20Fitness%20Test%20FAQs%20

Running, push-ups, and sit-ups, basically. Fitness in relation to the needs of the military are not the same as being an athlete in a particular sport.
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My recollection of my college peers enrolled in ROTC is that PT tests were a significant part on how MOS assignments were made, and acing the PT test was de-facto required for those vying for the most selective assignments. A bad PT score could easily be the difference between getting an active duty assignment or being assigned to the Reserves. It was much more than a pass/fail affair.

I have no idea if such pressure continues after initial selection, but I know that competition within the military is often quite intense for highly desirable schools, jobs, and promotions.
 
TomB said:
No. That's P.E. class.

Well, maybe you could call it vocational training that some portion of participants will turn into scholarships or careers.
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Don't be obtuse. Plenty of resources are set aside for student athletes who have no future of scholarships or pro careers. participating in organized sports is itself an educational experience, give me a ****** break here.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
Setting aside other issues, this goes back to my other point. You won't have enough trans athletes in many schools to fill out a soccer team. Reporting of these states passing trans-exclusion laws are having the practical impact of kicking out like a handful of trans athletes in the entire state.
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No it doesn't. That's dishonest.

There is nothing preventing them from participating in sports if they can make the team.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
Don't be obtuse. Plenty of resources are set aside for student athletes who have no future of scholarships or pro careers. participating in organized sports is itself an educational experience, give me a ****** break here.
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And there is nothing preventing a trans-student from participating.
 
TomB said:
And there is nothing preventing a trans-student from participating.
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So are we admitting that school sports are more than feeders for scholarships? Jesus it's like pulling teeth here, and it's not even the root of the issue.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
My recollection of my college peers enrolled in ROTC is that PT tests were a significant part on how MOS assignments were made, and acing the PT test was de-facto required for those vying for the most selective assignments. A bad PT score could easily be the difference between getting an active duty assignment or being assigned to the Reserves. It was much more than a pass/fail affair.

I have no idea if such pressure continues after initial selection, but I know that competition within the military is often quite intense for highly desirable schools, jobs, and promotions.
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My son and my daughter were in the Air Force as enlisted. The most desirable jobs require high asfab scores, not high PT scores. Promotions require an academic test.

The easiest to get into is security forces, which is also the most physical. My daughter was in that. My son did better and was a dental assistant and then a recruiter.

I'm sure there are additional fitness requirements for some jobs, like pilot. But most airmen are not competing for jobs in the gym.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
So are we admitting that school sports are more than feeders for scholarships? Jesus it's like pulling teeth here, and it's not even the root of the issue.
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As are college sports. Something can be two things at once.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
So are we admitting that school sports are more than feeders for scholarships? Jesus it's like pulling teeth here, and it's not even the root of the issue.
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And the root of the issue is this B.S. meaningless demarcation between "elite" and "non-elite" sport.
 
TomB said:
And the root of the issue is this B.S. meaningless demarcation between "elite" and "non-elite" sport.
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The demarcation is very real. There's even different divisions for school sports.

My wife competed in NCAA track and field and it wasn't the tiny pittance of a scholarship that attracted her to it. Division II and III sports remain popular for students with no illusions of attaining full ride scholarships or professional sporting careers. Why do you think that is?
 
Competing in segregated sports - professional or not - after puberty has set in is going to be one area that trans folk are going to be excluded from. And that is for either sex and any transition direction. Trans men are likely to be mainly excluded from segregated sports on the bases of having to take certain drugs which are performance enhancers, trans women for both that and safety considerations and yes fairness.

Sports after puberty sets in is one area where there isn't a middle ground or a compromise point if it is a physically based sport then trans folk will be excluded (undoubtable there will be one or two exceptions as sports covers such a wide spread of activities). It is doubly sad as because of their very low numbers in the population they are unlikely even to be able to form trans leagues or other all trans competitions.

I know many would vehemently argue that this shouldn't be the case, and I am more than sympathetic with their arguments, I'd like the world to be different in many ways.
 
Aber said:
Depend on your definitions of elite; high school boys outperform female Olympians

https://boysvswomen.com/#/
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Never mind sprinting - the Aussie women's soccer team, who are ranked 5th in the world, played a team of 15 year old boys in 2016.

And lost 0-7.

It's much worse when you look at contact sports. Women will die if they're made to play men at rugby and rugby league.

Ho hum.
 
Darat said:
Competing in segregated sports - professional or not - after puberty has set in is going to be one area that trans folk are going to be excluded from. And that is for either sex and any transition direction. Trans men are likely to be mainly excluded from segregated sports on the bases of having to take certain drugs which are performance enhancers, trans women for both that and safety considerations and yes fairness.

Sports after puberty sets in is one area where there isn't a middle ground or a compromise point if it is a physically based sport then trans folk will be excluded (undoubtable there will be one or two exceptions as sports covers such a wide spread of activities). It is doubly sad as because of their very low numbers in the population they are unlikely even to be able to form trans leagues or other all trans competitions.

I know many would vehemently argue that this shouldn't be the case, and I am more than sympathetic with their arguments, I'd like the world to be different in many ways.
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Prepare yourself. I agree 100%.

As I have said countless times in this thread, everyone in this thread and, I believe, the community at large, wish for transwomen and transmen to have fulfilling lives and not be discriminated against in areas like employment, housing and (with caveats) access to government services.

What I object to is where demands of trans activists impact on the rights of women to sex segregated change rooms, sports, prisons and so on. This is not bigoted or transphobic in any way.
 
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