Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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I promise you, if I was a woman, and a trans-woman walked into the toilets while I'm there, he would be instructed to leave immediately, and if he failed to do so, would get a face full of mace! He could count on it!

I would like to return to this.

I wonder why smartcooky would instantly decide that were he a woman he would go all Charlotte Bronson on any transwoman walking into a toilet.

First of all, wouldn't they be likely to be using a cubicle?

Second, would smartcooky always be able to tell?

Thirdly, what about transmen? If a transman walked into the women's toilets (therefore a biological woman) would smartcooky mace them as well or would smartcooky know that the transmen (Elliot Page, say, or Buck Angel) were biological women?

Would it make a difference if it was perfectly legal for a transwoman to walk into a toilet, regardless of how you felt about those laws?

I wonder why the need to flaunt these violent fantasies?
 
Should trans men be able to compete in men's sport*, or should they be made to participate only in women's sport? Or should they be made to participate in their own special "trans" category, away from both men's and women's categories? Or should they not be allowed to participate in any sporting activities?

* Excluding sub-elite and elite level competition, or certain contact sports.

I would include most club, jr high, high school, and college sports in "elite and sub-elite level competition." If you are talking intramurals, sure.
 
Largely a marketing term that says, "You're the one who's weird, not men who put on women's clothing and hang around in bars." Taken literally it would mean fear of transgendered people, which seems ludicrous to me, but I could understand it coming from women incarcerated with transwomen sex offenders. I'm sure a lot of people (like Kid Rock and Ted Nugent) are disgusted or feel revulsion and that's what gets classified as a phobia.

No, I think transphobia, similar to homophobia and xenophobia includes an "ick!" factor.

People often display extreme revulsion in a way that is still socially acceptable (for the most part) when it comes to transgender individuals in ways that it is far less so with gay people and foreigners.
 
Should trans men be able to compete in men's sport*, or should they be made to participate only in women's sport? Or should they be made to participate in their own special "trans" category, away from both men's and women's categories? Or should they not be allowed to participate in any sporting activities?


* Excluding sub-elite and elite level competition, or certain contact sports.

How many transmen want to play men’s sports? You will find some, but not many. The reasons are obvious. Not only will they not be competitive, not having gone through male puberty, they will usually be blown away.
 
And you really aren't being vindicated by real world decisions to the extent that you seem to think.

:thumbsup:

Reading the Title IX proposed amendments, with its recognition of the importance of fairness in sports, the only likely exemption from a ban on transwomen in female sports will be at elementary school level, subject to the views of the courts.
 
So what you're saying here is essentially that you don't regard it as either significant or important that the actual world experts in this field of medical science have reclassified transgender identity, just as they reclassified homosexuality?

And you're either stating or implying that you know better than them, when you deny the validity* of transgender identity?
No, what I said very clearly is that transgender identity was not 'reclassified' in the DSM 'just as homosexuality was'.

'Transgender identity' (as currently conceptualised) without dysphoria has never been classified as a disorder, while gender dysphoria remains a disorder in the DSM5. At the most, 'gender identity disorder' did not have a specific criterion of dysphoria until this was added to multiple conditions in the DSMIII-R, but at that time the diagnostic criteria were quite different. And adding the requirement for 'distress, impairment or harm to others' was part of a general revision of multiple diagnoses, not a change in the understanding of GID.

I have lost count of the number of times you have been corrected on this. You always ignore it or go off on a rant, then come back and repeat the same false statements.

Do you ever stop to consider that when you are unable to make a case without false statements and misrepresentations, the entire foundation of your case may be suspect?

I see......
No you don't.
* For the avoidance of doubt, "validity" means "something that is a genuine, innate human condition, and which is not a mental health disorder** or the product of a mental health disorder".
This is nonsense. According to your made-up definition, false memories, false beliefs, and out-of-body experiences are also 'valid'.
** And to draw a parallel, someone identifying as an attack helicopter is considered by mainstream medicine to be suffering from a mental health disorder. Therein lies the difference.
There is no such psychological disorder in the DSM5. Identifying as anything without additional symptoms is not a disorder.
 
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Yes
Your view is wrong, and will never, ever be implemented. The people in charge are busy sorting all of this out at the moment: outside of elite and sub-elite competition, and outside those contact sports where there is a reasonable risk of injury to cis girls/women, trans people (men and women) will be participating in the category corresponding to their trans gender. Because trans people deserve the right to participate in sport, and they obviously deserve to have their trans gender respected.

What does gender have to do with a category clearly determined by biological sex? You're confusing gender with biological sex here.

Sport is divided into categories based on biological sex (and occasionally on other attributes like age or weight - though even in those cases it's worth noting that those categories are always divided by biological sex as well). Not on what sex or weight a person feels themselves to be. I'm interested to know on what grounds you think a person's gender should allow them to identify into a category divided by sex. Or do you believe sport is divided by gender identity?
 
Sport is divided into categories based on biological sex (and occasionally on other attributes like age or weight - though even in those cases it's worth noting that those categories are always divided by biological sex as well). Not on what sex or weight a person feels themselves to be.

I'm now imagining a 200 lb boxer insisting they should be allowed to compete for the bantamweight title because they identify as bantamweight.
 
Made-up words!

Also, "Cultural-Marxist".

I don't know how IsThisTheLife imagines there are words that were not made up. Maybe they were made up in Heaven by God or something. Still, if any term is a propaganda term parotted by mindless NPCs it is Cultural Marxism.

Cultural marxism is a term coined decades ago for the self-declared and quite real strategy of a "long march through the institutions". What else would you call it?

In case you haven't noticed, there are still large, well-funded political organisations which explicitly define themselves as Marxist and yet the entire premise of a "class struggle" and the oppression of the working classes ('proletariat') has practically disappeared, instead the "oppressed" are now a diverse (sic) coalition of minorities who supposedly have common ground in the sense that 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'.

Although these disparate groups all compete with each other for their place in the Oppression League Table they form a uniformly leftist/socialist voting bloc.

(Note Diane Abbot's recent clumsy attempt to remind everyone of the pre-eminance of black Africans on the Oppression League Table and the "offense" taken by various other minorities. This is the Left eating itself.)
 
Cultural marxism is a term coined decades ago for the self-declared and quite real strategy of a "long march through the institutions". What else would you call it?

No, Cultural Marxism refers to a body of 20th Century Marxist writings almost entirely predating 1968 that explored the importance of ideology and culture. The far right has been confusing itself and conflating different strands of leftwing theory and practice for decades; the Frankfurt School academics and intellectuals have nothing to do with the 'long march through the institutions'; only Herbert Marcuse had something to do with student radicalism in the late 1960s, and he was nowhere near as central to the FFS as Adorno.

The phrase 'long march through the institutions' was coined by the 1968er Rudi Dutschke, who was familiar with Lukacs (rightly identified as a Cultural Marxist in his philosophy, but in his political practice he was a Stalinist) but was also influenced by Maoism and Third Worldism, entirely separate traditions.

In the wake of 1968, western societies saw the rise of so-called 'new social movements' - environmentalism in particular, but also feminism plus lesbian and gay liberation. The 1970s and 1980s saw almost all of these abandon any connection with Marxism of whatever variety.

Intellectually, post-structuralism and postmodernism replaced Marxism, which provided the nurturing ground for queer theory, to bring things back towards the thread topic.

In case you haven't noticed, there are still large, well-funded political organisations which explicitly define themselves as Marxist and yet the entire premise of a "class struggle" and the oppression of the working classes ('proletariat') has practically disappeared, instead the "oppressed" are now a diverse (sic) coalition of minorities who supposedly have common ground in the sense that 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'.

Please name the 'large, well-funded political organisations' that define themselves as Marxist. Any political party that defines itself as Marxist is usually extremely marginal.

Nearly all of what is labelled 'Cultural Marxism' on the right is post-Marxist ideologically - certainly in relation to classical Marxist theory and practice *as well as* the positions of Adorno et al, the actual Cultural Marxists. Some aspects are merely social liberalism - bear in mind that Marxism and liberalism coexisted for a hundred plus years before 1989 and the collapse of the 'actually existing socialist' East Bloc, so of course there has been dialogue throughout that time.

In the US context, another catch is that the Democrats were in the north a multi-ethnic, multi-religious coalition of hyphenated Americans for much of the 20th Century. Southern Democrats were also uneasy partners in this coalition, and boosted Dem numbers to prolonged majorities in the Senate and Congress for many decades. So the 'coalition of minorities' aspect is not entirely new.

Self-identified Marxists today are more often than not gender-critical and regard identity politics as entirely compatible with neoliberalism.

Centre-left parties now attract much support from the educated middle class, as well as public-sector workforces, which are usually more unionised than private sector workforces, and reflect the interests of these groups in many respects. This group was called in actual communist societies 'the New Class', it's also called the professional-managerial class. There is a significant overlap with many aspects of corporations' management (eg HR departments) and culture industries in the private sector, as well as non-profits - charities and NGOs. The direct influence of Marxism on any of these groups and sectors seems attenuated and limited; they all have to compromise with neoliberalism.

Here's an actual Marxist criticising someone involved in environmental justice for missing the point regarding the Green New Deal, and freely criticising the professional class, 'MSNBC-brained liberals' and "Robin DiAngelo-inspired DEI training sessions", etc.
https://www.historicalmaterialism.o...onse-to-michael-leviens-review-climate-change

In other words, this is a criticism of what the right calls 'woke' or 'Cultural Marxism' from the left - and a far more concise and accurate set of criticisms, since the actual Marxist can discuss industrial production and workforces, which the post-Marxist left can't bring itself to do.

The assumption that 'the left' thinks entirely in lockstep is as bogus as the assumption that 'the right' agrees on everything. On an issue like climate change, the predominant response from the US right has been foot-dragging, denialism and contrarianism. The European right has been more supportive of environmentalism, although there are contrarians and denialists in the UK and Europe as well.

On an issue like gender identity, the centre-right has proved itself to be a lot more reasonable and sensible than the centre-left, and ends up agreeing with parts of the radical left, in some cases from different starting premises. There are also centre-right politicians in the UK and EU who end up siding with gender identity ideologues and parrot the standard mantras (see the remarks of assorted Tory MPs over the past few years).
 
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What softball teams do you think a trans boy (or trans girl) should participate in?
Co-ed teams, obviously. I don't see any problem with elementary schools promoting co-ed sports until around Tanner stage 2 or thereabouts. Extracurricular club leagues may want to take a different approach, naturally, since they are grooming players to make the varsity squad (and hopefully pull a softball scholarship which will help pay for an otherwise onerously expensive college education) and the shift from merely recreational to highly competitive will likely necessitate leveling the playing field in terms of endogenous testosterone.

Either trans boys...should be allowed to participate in boys' sport, or they should be made to participate in girls' sport, or they should be segregated into their own "special" category of sport, or they should not be allowed to participate in sport at all. Those are the only four options.
You missed an obvious fifth option here. Having played co-ed softball myself, I can report that it is a perfectly copacetic alternative to more intensely competitive sex-segregated leagues.
 
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I'm going to go on saying that there's no such thing as
- prepubescent children who are provably and enduringly transgender,
- in any way that requires trans-affirming care,
- including not requiring accommodations with sex segregation.
 
I'm going to go on saying that there's no such thing as
- prepubescent children who are provably and enduringly transgender,
- in any way that requires trans-affirming care,
- including not requiring accommodations with sex segregation.
Everything I can see says NZ is going full California
 
Shame that the entire mainstream medical community and most progressive governments fundamentally disagree with your position. I wonder which of the two opposing positions is both correct and on the right side of history.....?

Please provide evidence to support your claim that
1) The entire medical community does NOT acknowledge that sex is a material reality that is immutable
and
2) The entire medical community agrees that there is an objective way to determine a person's gender identity.

Without supporting proof, your claim is meaningless. It represents nothing more than an attempt to fallaciously dismiss my position using an appeal to imaginary authority.
 
Your view is wrong, and will never, ever be implemented. The people in charge are busy sorting all of this out at the moment: outside of elite and sub-elite competition, and outside those contact sports where there is a reasonable risk of injury to cis girls/women, trans people (men and women) will be participating in the category corresponding to their trans gender. Because trans people deserve the right to participate in sport, and they obviously deserve to have their trans gender respected.

Are you seriously claiming that the way this has been done and implemented over the past 50 years was a figment of our collective imagination? Are you further claiming that there are ZERO cases in the US right now where this separation remains in place?

Please refrain from trying to force your wishcasting into reality.
 
So what you're saying here is essentially that you don't regard it as either significant or important that the actual world experts in this field of medical science have reclassified transgender identity, just as they reclassified homosexuality?

And you're either stating or implying that you know better than them, when you deny the validity* of transgender identity?

Please stop using humpty-dumpty language and making unfounded claims that intentionally mislead.

"Transgender Identity" has NEVER EVER NEVER been considered a mental health disorder.

Transvestic Fetishism has been - and continues to be - a mental health disorder.

Gender Identity Disorder has been RENAMED to Gender Dysphoria. And it REMAINS a mental health condition in the current DSM-5.

Your claims on this are, quite simply, wrong.
 
Well, your proposed approach is entirely unworkable.

Either trans boys (for example*) should be allowed to participate in boys' sport, or they should be made to participate in girls' sport, or they should be segregated into their own "special" category of sport, or they should not be allowed to participate in sport at all. Those are the only four options.
Females who have not taken performance enhancing exogenous testosterone should participate in the female sport league. Males should participate in the male sport league.
If a female wants to take performance enhancing exogenous testosterone, then they have a choice to make: Try out for the male team, which they are highly unlikely to be competitive in, or don't participate in the sport. We don't allow people who take performance enhancing drugs to participate in sports, no matter how much they feel they should be allowed to break the rules. The fact that I am willing to even consider an exception for this is entirely a matter of emotion - specifically compassion for the transgender identified female.

That said, I 100% support the creation of a female baseball team, and of a male softball team.

The third and fourth of these are very obviously non-starters (well, it should be obvious to all right-thinking people....). And of the first & second options, I believe it's perfectly clear that the only reasonable solution is to allow trans boys to participate in boys' sport.
WHY do you believe that this is the only reasonable solution? And WHY do you believe it should be perfectly clear?
 
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I don't know how IsThisTheLife imagines there are words that were not made up.

Don't fall into this game, please. Yes, technically, all words are "made up", but can we leave solipsistic shenanigans out of it?

You know perfectly well what was meant. Words represent concepts, and those concepts are generally agreed upon by the people using those words. In some cases, the words are transformed to jargon - topic specific variations from a commonly-used meaning. For example, "hypothesis" in colloquial terms is synonymous to the terms speculation; as scientific jargon, however, it means a testable idea that is capable of falsification - that is there exists a means by which to reject the the proposed idea.

In this case, however, we're not even dealing with jargon. We're dealing with humpty-dumpty-ism. This is a case where people make up special meanings of a word that are specific to them, which are not being used in a technical sense, and which contradict the common understanding of the term. But the people using humpty-dumpty language have a strong tendency to insist that their invented special meaning is what everyone else "really means" when they use the term.
 
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