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Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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Nobody is saying that trans adults can't mutilate themselves to their heart's content. Hack away! And I'd guess that the feminists here aren't worried about post-op transwomen, it's the ones who still have a cock and balls that seem to be the concern.

Views differ. I think at a theoretical level, we feminists in this thread have significantly less concern about post op males.

The problem is that we can't tell. So in the current environment, where there is no gatekeeping and no requirement for a male to have a penectomy, orchiectomy, and vaginoplasty... if we make a concession for post-op male transsexuals, we are placed in a position of having accept any and all male into our spaces. I mean, I suppose we could hire inspectors to stand at the door... but that has a whole host of problems on its own.

I'd like to remind participants in this thread that for a very long time, females did not kick up any fuss about transsexual males in our spaces. That was because there were clinical requirements for them that we trusted to act as a safeguard on our behalf.

It has really only been with the rise of self-declaration taking precedence in policy that we have pushed back. We've now been put in a position of accepting ALL males, or accepting NO males. And given that choice, a great many of us land on NONE. That sucks for the post-op transsexuals who did not abuse our trust, and did not violate our boundaries.

Females did not create this situation or this conflict.
 
Very well, you'll fight your fight alone. Good luck! I'd suggest as a matter of practicality you should reserve your ammunition to fire against the main enemy, but you'd clearly rather shoot at other factions. The enemy of your enemy is an even worse enemy! That's the path to victory.

Thank you, Mr. Male, for mansplaining to me how to Feminism the right way. :rolleyes:
 
Religious nutters they may be but really well funded and strategically smart religious nutters who are gaining ground. The overturning of Roe v Wade was well planned . The Strategic campaigning in seats with small margins and large fundamentalist and Catholic populations in the run up to the 2016 election when some vacancies were about to present in SCOTUS.

The discussions by groups like the Heritage Foundations about exactly what sort of laws needed to be introduced to maximise the chance of them succeeding in the SCOTUS.

My problem with this is that you have people on the gender critical side such as the LGB Alliance who say that it is necessary for them to work with groups like the Heritage Foundation and others who were working to overturn Roe v Wade.

Well fine I suppose, but if they get all high and mighty about women's rights how are we supposed to take that seriously if they are working with the groups who were part of the overturning of Roe v Wade and are now gunning for Obegefell and probably Lawrence v Texas?

Observation: A large number of males seem to be under the impression that the only element of female rights is that around abortion. It's as if they are blind to the many other rights and equalities that are also at risk or which are being chipped away.

These same males then proceed to insist that all females must focus solely on abortion to the exclusion of any other topic.

One might wonder if these males have something to gain by keeping females from awareness of how our rights and equalities are evaporating.
 
Very well, you'll fight your fight alone. Good luck! I'd suggest as a matter of practicality you should reserve your ammunition to fire against the main enemy, but you'd clearly rather shoot at other factions. The enemy of your enemy is an even worse enemy! That's the path to victory.
It is a trademark principle of trans rights advocacy that men make the best women, and if you don't agree they'll send a man around to set you straight.
 
What strikes me as odd about this is that general principles of autonomy and consent would lead me to conclude that female humans ought to be allowed to determine their own fate, whether we're talking about a single individual's womb or a pair of lesbians in bed or an entire female sports league or music festival. Instead, we see males trying to intervene at every level, sometimes forcibly.

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:thumbsup:
 
Yes, it's pretty clear from your posts that you don't know what the discussion is about.

I asked what "sex is real" meant and for an example of someone saying that sex wasn't real.

The answer would go something like "'Sex is real' means ..."

And "An example of someone saying that sex isn't real is..."

That was the starting point.

My position is tha her statement is just a bit of handwaving.

The kind of responses I have received on this tend, on the whole to reinforce that position.

Just for giggles, there's an entire argument going on at IIDB on this topic, with a couple of people (both male, interestingly) firmly in the camp of sex being nor "real", and arguing that biological sex is imaginary, arbitrary, and meaningless.

Start here and follow the cartwheels...
https://iidb.org/threads/gendered-spaces-split-from-drag-shows.26989/page-52#post-1092271
I think by in large it's an attempt to cause adjacency in conversation so that association happens between "people lie" and "trans people" so as to foment "trans people are liars", as if there is any essential truth behind "man/woman" or even "male/female".
Highlight mine, of course.

ETA: Adding some more for you.

The Myth Of Biological Sex
Opinion: Biological Science Rejects the Sex Binary, and That’s Good for Humanity

Here's one that covers several different articles and claims about sex being either a spectrum or arbitrary in some fashion.
Junk Science Week: This just in: Biological sex is a myth!
 
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Again, that is the biological definition which is encoded in our DNA.

But trans gender people don't claim to be able to alter their genetic makeup and so are not claiming to change sex in that sense.

Okay, let's just stop for a moment. Let's drop the bits that are "What Robin thinks ought to be the argument" and give some consideration to what is.

You keep stating your personal "ought" as if it were an "is". That's not demonstrated, and I don't accept your premise.

We can start with this little bit right here.

First, you are positing that sex is equivalent to DNA. This is your first faulty assumption. You make this assumption when you claim that the biological definition of sex is encoded in our DNA. That is false.

The definition of sex is based on sexually dimorphic reproductive phenotypes that have evolved for the production of either small gametes or large gametes. This definition is species agnostic, it holds for all anisogamous species. More relevantly, it holds for every single mammal and every single bird on our planet at present, and well back in history - back to about the time that fungi and animalia separated. This is important because not all anisogamouos sexually reproducing species use DNA as a determination mechanism. Alligators use temperature. If the average temperature of the eggs is above a certain point, all of the offspring in that clutch will be male; if it's lower, they're all female. In humans, the primary determination mechanism is sex-differentiated chromosomal DNA. The same is true for birds, by the way, but where mammals have evolved so that the male has the mismatched pairing and females have the matched pairing, birds are the opposite. This definition of sex is also important because it addresses disorders of sexual development - it is agnostic of karyotype. While the vast majority of humans are bog standard XX or XY, other karyotype combinations exist, such as XXXY or even X0. They're rare, and they bring a lot of medical complications to the table... but they don't result in there being anything other than male or female humans.

So then, your very first assumption is flawed. Sex is not defined by our DNA, it's defined based on whether we develop the phenotype associated with the production of ova, or the one associated with the production of sperm.

Your second flaw is where the "ought/is" swap takes place. You declaratively say that transgender people don't claim to be able to alter their genetic make-up.

This claim springboards from your incorrect assumptions regarding sex. Secondly, it assumes that all transgender people AGREE that XX = Female and XY = Male. And this is not true.

Many transgender people make the (flawed) argument that sex is not based on the reproductive phenotype, nor on their karyotype... but is instead based on some combination of secondary features, or even based on behavior and social roles. The reality is that when transgender people make arguments about sex, they are very often not using a scientific definition of sex at all. They're using a cobbled together set of sex-related elements in order to support their preferred outcome. They are using flawed arguments.

You are effectively making a declaration that transgender people OUGHT NOT to claim that they can change their genetic makeup, because in your opinion, genetic makeup OUGHT TO BE considered the defining element of sex.

But neither of those things is true.

When we in this thread talk about the meme of "sex isn't real", we're talking about the arguments made by either transgender people themselves or by activists on their behalf, in which sex has been redefined to be something that it isn't... and from which they then argue that sex is either arbitrary (being a spectrum and any person can be any degree of male or female) or is a social construct.
 
Again, it would be absolutely lovely if the majority of people used "male" and "female" in the sense that Dr Hilton suggests, it would make the world a way less hostile for people like me.

But, sadly, they don't.

Only because after insisting that gender (the set of stereotypes and roles placed on people because of their sex) is different from sex (the phenotype of their reproductive system)... they've come full circle back to saying their the same thing, only now they're insisting that a person's "sex" is determined by their gender identity and completely ignoring the reality.

If you think it would be lovely if people used accurate scientific terminology when discussing scientific reality, you can help by accurately using those terms yourself.
 
This story speaks for itself on gender self ID, and the capture by the pronoun zealots.

Does it? What does it say when it speaks for itself?
The entire article refers to Warwick with female pronouns, and presents the entire story as if these crimes were committed by a female. But Warwick is male. There's no suggestion anywhere that Warwick had ever undergone any clinical treatment for dysphoria, nor in any fashion sought legal change of status as a transgender person - they merely self-identify as a "woman".

Thus, the entire article demonstrates the degree of ideological capture involved in this topic. This is a male criminal, who has committed male-pattern crimes, but it is reported as if they are female.

Is every crime a trans gender person commits from now on going to be a commentary about trans people in general?
No. It's not a commentary on transgender people in gender, it's a commentary on the policy capture that leads reporting agencies to actively obscure reality in favor of an ideological agenda.

If the police are actually appealing to the public for any sightings of this criminal... they would get considerably better results if the public were told they are to keep an eye out for a MALE. But because the article refers to Warwick as if they were female throughout its entirety, most people are going to be looking for a female and they're highly likely to not take note of the actual criminal.

Because contrary to current argumentative trends... humans are incredibly good at visually discerning the sex of other post-pubescent humans. Not a single one of us can see a person's gender identity.
 
It's going to be a commentary on trans rights activism in general. As it should be.
It's not clear why or how that follows. Just because some people do crimes doesn't mean other people with similar characteristics shouldn't be granted civil rights.


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It's not clear why or how that follows. Just because some people do crimes doesn't mean other people with similar characteristics shouldn't be granted civil rights.

It raises pertinent questions about what the activists are fighting for, and what they're willing to tolerate to get it.

It also raises pertinent questions about whether the things the activists are fighting for are actually civil rights (rather than begging those questions).
 
It raises pertinent questions about what the activists are fighting for, and what they're willing to tolerate to get it.
No, it doesn't.

In no other context would you besmirch civil rights activists just because some of the people they are fighting for have committed crimes unrelated to the rights at issue.



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No, it doesn't.

In no other context would you besmirch civil rights activists just because some of the people they are fighting for have committed crimes unrelated to the rights at issue.



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If there's one thing I've learned from this discussion over the years, it's that the nature of the crimes and other bad behavior is very much related to the "rights" at issue.

Scare quotes because I think calling them rights is begging the question. I'm not even remotely convinced that transcending sex segregation is a right.

And I think every time a transsexual man ("transwoman") exploits his "right" to transcend sex segregation, in order to rape, assault, abuse, or erase women, it's pertinent to ask, is this what trans activists want? Is this the price they're willing for the rest of us to pay, to get the results they want?

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There's an activist group in my town that posts bail for accused felons, no questions asked. Because the American bail system is regressive and systemically racist.

So of course the obvious happens. They post bail for a repeating violent offender. A guy who has been arrested, been released, and committed fresh violent crimes. Not someone who should be back out on the street. No matter how much you believe in civil rights.

So anyway, they bail this guy out, no questions asked, and of course he promptly puts an innocent woman in the hospital.

This raises pertinent questions about the activists, their activism, and what collateral damage they're willing to inflict on their society in the name of social justice.

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A recurring theme from the TRAs in this thread has been an absolute refusal to acknowledge the real harm their transsexual rights policies do. And of course therefore an absolute refusal to offer any solution to this intrinsic problem with their advocacy.

I think that every time a transwoman commits rape in a women's prison, breaks a women's athletic record, etc., it's pertinent to ask TRAs why they're willing to accept these inevitable and harmful consequences of their activism.

Maybe you don't see it that way, but I do. I've made my case forgot looking at it that way, as best I can. I hope others will give it some thought, even if you've already made up your mind.
 
I think that every time a transwoman commits rape in a women's prison, breaks a women's athletic record, etc., it's pertinent to ask TRAs why they're willing to accept these inevitable and harmful consequences of their activism.
This is the easily defensible motte (activists actually put someone in a position to do harm) but the bailey was every time a transgender individual does harm it reflects upon the activists, regardless of context.
 
This is the easily defensible motte (activists actually put someone in a position to do harm) but the bailey was every time a transgender individual does harm it reflects upon the activists, regardless of context.

You are imagining an architectural design not actually manifest in my argument.

I'm not playing motte and bailey here. I'm convinced of the rightness of my claim, in all the various phrasings I've used. If you think my claim goes too far, according to some paraphrase of your own devising, that's your game, not mine.
 
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