Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

[Emily's Cat]

They don't get to say what is and what isn't important, nor does JKR. Different things are important to different people. Me, I don't think that biological sex or gender are particularly important

I don't know what gender is and biological sex is just something that happens to be the case about my body.

I don't place any importance on being a man, in whatever sense it is meant. Now should I start finding it important because JKR tells me so? I couldn't find it important if I tried.

Here's the thing... sex is rarely important to males. Males have, by and large, benefitted from their sex. Their sex has been used as a source of power and prestige, and justification for their primacy in society. Females, on the other hand, have been abused and discriminated against because of our sex throughout history - and continue to be mistreated today. We are denied autonomy over our own bodies in a quarter of the states in the US. We face discrimination in the workplace, catcalling and sexual harassment out in public, we are subjected to sexual assaults and rapes at a massive level. We face teasing and mockery from males when we have periods as young females. We are subjected to ogling from old men as soon as we grow breasts. We are treated as if we exist for the primary purpose of giving males pleasure.

We have incredibly common ailments that go undiagnosed because medicine has been historically focused on males. Our ailments go untreated because doctors continue to discount our complaints of pain and assume that we're overreacting. Our mental health and neurodiverse conditions go undiagnosed and untreated because the criteria have been defined based on how they present in males. We face increased risk of injury because seatbelts in cars are designed with a male frame in mind. We are subjected to higher levels of side effects for drugs because up until very recently, clinical trials only used male subjects.

For females, our sex is something that is used against us, which puts us at risk, and which we cannot just wish ourselves out of.

For males, sex is irrelevant. But it's male privilege to assume that it must also be irrelevant to females.

 

[Emily's Cat]

That is surprising.

Quite. It's rare for females to engage in aggressive violence, and extraordinarily rare for females to engage in mass violence of that sort. Not unheard of, but still very surprising.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Those who argue that biological sex is subordinate to gender identity are dereifying the category of biological sex in favor of something which cannot be observed from the outside but only perceived subjectively. They don't say "sex isn't real" but that is the logical implication of making it subordinate to gender.

It's analogous to a religionist saying that the suffering of the body is irrelevant and of no account - the body doesn't matter, only the soul is truly real.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Sure. I've never been called a sissy or effeminate or "not a man" or gender non-conforming because I am a biological male who acts in a certain way.. I just imagined those things.

The term "boy", "girl", "man", "woman" ,"male" "female" never carried the implication of an obligation to dress and act in a certain way.

Sure. Let's pretend that's not a thing.

Please stop playing shell games with literal and figurative terms.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Another interesting tidbit from episode seven of Witch Trials is a reference to the AP style guide. I don't recall touching on this topic earlier, but it goes to the whole "sex is real" issue when professional writers are discouraged from referring to biological sex.

https://twitter.com/abigailandwords/status/1550579225031327745

https://artscomm.ecu.edu/abide/apdiversitycomm/

To add on, the "sex is real" shorthand is also a counter to the forcible language of "assigned female at birth". As if sex is just randomly pulled out of a hat and pinned to a baby's nappy.

Reality is that sex was never assigned at birth, it was recorded at birth. In modern times, it's usually observed in utero. And it is determined when the sperm breaches the egg wall.

 

[Emily's Cat]

That's kind of the point. Rowling is not using the term as it is applied to people in everyday life. She is not talking about the concept "male" as it has been applied, for example, to me all my life.

What "concept" of male do you have in mind? Because from your posting, it sounds like you're a phenotypical male of the human species, in possession of a fully functional male reproductive system with demonstrated ability to produce fertile gametes.

 

[Robin]

Here's the thing... sex is rarely important to males. Males have, by and large, benefitted from their sex. Their sex has been used as a source of power and prestige, and justification for their primacy in society. Females, on the other hand, have been abused and discriminated against because of our sex throughout history - and continue to be mistreated today. We are denied autonomy over our own bodies in a quarter of the states in the US. We face discrimination in the workplace, catcalling and sexual harassment out in public, we are subjected to sexual assaults and rapes at a massive level. We face teasing and mockery from males when we have periods as young females. We are subjected to ogling from old men as soon as we grow breasts. We are treated as if we exist for the primary purpose of giving males pleasure.

So why would you want to maintain the social categories that have led to this oppression?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Some activists are saying it, and some are otherwise attempting to redefine what the phrase “biological sex” means or what it refers to. https://growinguptransgender.com/2018/11/01/biological-sex-is-a-social-construct/

Should be interesting trying to explain to their "daughter" why they're ejaculating sperm all over their bedding in the middle of the night while also trying to maintain the fiction that their "daughter" is NOT biologically male.

Might also be a bit confusing when their "daughter" goes for their first cervical exam and the doctor can't find it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

People like me being a broken version of the category "man"
(which, let's face it, society will always regard the sissy as being second class) rather than a well adjusted member of my own category.

I find myself getting frustrated. So I will attempt to be exceedingly clear, in hopes that this will allow you to process these concepts in a way more accessible to people with autism.

You being called a "sissy" and similar derogatory comments are figurative language. It relies on a figurative meaning of the term man, one which is based on stereotypes and sex-based roles.

And I guarantee that not a single person who ever bullied or harassed you for "not being man enough" every thought you were a literal female.

This is the difference between figurative and literal language. Most of us in this thread are talking about literal sexes, not figurative sexes.

There was a brief point in time where second wave feminists did a lot of work to try to separate the two, and tried to rename the figurative sense as "gender". Boy oh boy did we screw up, because that separation of the figurative social construct from the reality of literal sex get hijacked into something insane.

So please, bear in mind that in this thread, the majority of the posters are using literal language when we talk about sex. We are not using figurative language.

If it helps, consider that the mantra of "Transwomen are Women" involves an attempt to force a figurative usage into a literal space. Which is why this thread is titled "Transwomen are not Women". Because transwomen are MALE. And males are not [literalwomen.

 

[Robin]

What "concept" of male do you have in mind? Because from your posting, it sounds like you're a phenotypical male of the human species, in possession of a fully functional male reproductive system with demonstrated ability to produce fertile gametes.

Aha the motte again.

So you are claiming that the concept has never involved any expectation of an obligation to act and dress in a certain way.

In other words I only imagined that I got bullied for being a sissy. I only imagine that I got excluded because I was effeminate.

That never happened right?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Well I live full time with a biological female so we can test your ingenious little theory out.

So BM=Biological Male
BF=Biological Female

And remember the context of my remark was about the process of transition and "living your life as the opposite sex" and I was asking what you would do differently if I was "living my life as a woman".

According to you and in the context of my remark you were answering, BM can do nothing that BF does.

BM: Gets up and goes shopping for stuff for kids breakfast and lunch.
BF: Hurries kids up to get dressed and puts helps them out together what they need for the day
BM & BF: Prepare and pack kids' breakfast and lunch
BM: Take kid to station
BF: Gets together material for the youngest kids home schooling.

Since each of these is something the other do then this is so far that we have lived our lives in common.

So I have lived 100% of my day as a woman and my wife has lived 100% of her day as a man.

(What else did you think ""live my life" meant?)

OK, I'm going to pop off and smoke some cigars at the Woman Oppressing Club and then check back and test more of your theory out.

Which is what I was talking about. So your 0% theory is busted already

So... in your opinion "biological female" means doing the dishes and the child care, and has nothing at all to do with sex? Your entire concept of "biological female" is a set of regressive stereotypes.

I reiterate: you have lived 0% of your life as a female, because you are incontrovertibly a male.

Similarly, I am going to go out on a limb and say you have lived 0% of your life as a black person, because you are a white person. How much you might like hip hop is irrelevant to the objective fact that you are not black.

You are not female. You have lived no part of your life as a female.

 

[Robin]

Here's the thing... sex is rarely important to males. Males have, by and large, benefitted from their sex. Their sex has been used as a source of power and prestige, and justification for their primacy in society. Females, on the other hand, have been abused and discriminated against because of our sex throughout history - and continue to be mistreated today. We are denied autonomy over our own bodies in a quarter of the states in the neurodiverse conditions go undiagnosed and untreated because the criteria have been defined based on how they present in males. We face increased risk of injury because seatbelts in cars are designed with a male frame in mind. We are subjected to higher levels of side effects for drugs because up until very recently, clinical trials only used male subjects.

Also it is BS that sex is irrelevant for the most powerful men. Powerful men revel in masculinity, it is the basis of their power they celebrate it in rituals.

Why do you think Republican candidates argue about the size of their dicks on stage. Are you really telling me that they don't care about what sex they are??? Seriously???

If you don't know that you don't know anything about men and sexual politics.

Being a Man is of paramount importance to most powerful men. That is why they are fighting so hard against anything that goes against the gender status quo.

 

[lionking]

Aha the motte again.

So you are claiming that the concept has never involved any expectation of an obligation to act and dress in a certain way.

In other words I only imagined that I got bullied for being a sissy. I only imagine that I got excluded because I was effeminate.

That never happened right?

Rule of “so” and rather a blatant one. EC has never said or implied any of the above.

 

[Emily's Cat]

If you think that will change you are kidding yourself.

We thought we were breaking down the gender boundaries back in the 70s and 80s. But here we are in the third decade of the 21st century and they are still very much in place.

When do you envisage we succeed in separating the concept of sex from the arbitrary set of social rules? How are you going about doing this?

I bet if you saw me wearing a dress you would assume I was wearing women's clothes. Just as most people would.

I would assume that you were a male wearing clothing that is typically considered female. I used to date a guy who routinely wore long flowy skirts. Not kilts, skirts. It didn't make them any less male. They just liked a good breeze around their nethers.

Interestingly, some of the differences between typically male and typically female clothing is a result of actual physical differences in our bodies. The shape of trousers designed for females is different than that designed for males. Females have hips, so trousers need to curve inward above those hips. Males have penises and testicles, and need more room in the inseam that a female does. Shirts for females are tailored to accommodate breasts. Shirts for males are tailored to accommodate broader shoulders.

Historically, males wore trousers and females wore skirts because those clothing shapes were more efficient for urination. Trousers allow more freedom of movement, and for males, they only need to undo a fly in order to urinate. Females needed to squat to urinate, which is much easier to do in a skirt, rather than having to disrobe to the extent that would be needed if a female were wearing trousers.

That said, there are many parts of the world today where typical male clothing would be considered a dress or a robe.

 

[Robin]

Rule of “so” and rather a blatant one. EC has never said or implied any of the above.

Yes she did. She said that the.society's concept of "sex";refers to biological facts about the body and nothing besides.

If that were true then my sex would imply no obligation for behaviour and appearance.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Pressuring people to have sex that they don't want is wrong in any context. I have just said that a few posts back.

As I have said I doubt that it is more than a vanishingly insignificant proportion of transwoman who would wish to do so.

Again, arguments from incredulity aren't even arguments. You doubt it? Go do some looking. It's not even rare.

The lesbians who feel pressured to have sex and relationships with trans women
Some women have penises. If you won’t sleep with them you’re transphobic
Are Your Sexual Preferences Transphobic?
Yes, It’s Wrong to Tell Trans People You Don’t Want to Sleep With Them Because of Their Genitals
Transgender People Claim Gays Are ‘Transphobic’ For Declining Sex With Them

Just some starters for you. Just because you find it irrational and nutty doesn't mean it's not happening. Your incredulity doesn't make it not real.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Upon reflection, is the claim that people are "denying that trans gender is a real thing" just another bailey, or are there actual examples of people doing it?

It's not even a bailey. It's a strawman.

 

[Emily's Cat]

So why would you want to maintain the social categories that have led to this oppression?

I don't want to maintain the SOCIAL categories, but that does not make the BIOLOGICAL categories any less real or meaningful.

 

[Robin]

So... in your opinion "biological female" means doing the dishes and the child care, and has nothing at all to do with sex? Your entire concept of "biological female" is a set of regressive stereotypes.

No, of course I never said anything of the sort. You are still not reading.. I also said my wife was living as a man.

So according to your logic I must have been saying that "biological male" meant doing the dishes and child care.

So unless you think I was saying both these things then please acknowledge that I was saying neither of these things.

In the part you responded to I was talking about socially transitioning and asking what it could mean to live like a woman>

Now try to read that last paragraph and try to comprehend.

My point was that most of the things we do day to day are no different, from man to women. That if I wanted to "socially transition" I would do nothing differently.

My point was that "socially transitioning" is not really a coherent concept. I thought you would have agreed with that.

 

[Robin]

I don't want to maintain the SOCIAL categories, but that does not make the BIOLOGICAL categories any less real or meaningful.

But since you are ignoring that society's concept of the division between the sexes includes an expectation of an obligation to follow a set of social rules then you are, in effect, protecting the status quo of a SOCIAL category of male/female.