Drag Shows!!

[Thermal]

He's not a woman nor does he identify as one so why are you comparing him to women?

Are you familiar at all with RuPaul? He has very famously said "call me a he, or call me a she", and for most of his Drag Race shows, he started by saying "Gentlemen, start your engines, and may the best woman win" (it was only changed when a woman claiming she was a transman drag queen entered the competition).

You pretty sure what he identifies as, are you?

If he's "living the life" then that implies he must be dressing in drag at home. That's why I asked how you know what he wears at home. That's not an odd question to follow up on your statement.

What? "Living the life" as a drag queen doesn't mean they do it 24/7, just like being a musician and living the musician life doesn't mean you are playing your instrument 24/7.

 

[Darat]

Are you familiar at all with RuPaul? He has very famously said "call me a he, or call me a she", and for most of his Drag Race shows, he started by saying "Gentlemen, start your engines, and may the best woman win" (it was only changed when a woman claiming she was a transman drag queen entered the competition).

You pretty sure what he identifies as, are you?



What? "Living the life" as a drag queen doesn't mean they do it 24/7, just like being a musician and living the musician life doesn't mean you are playing your instrument 24/7.

The evidence is rather clear he doesn't live his life as a drag queen. He lives his life as "a man" wearing "male attire" - he puts his frocks on when he is giving a performance as his drag character. Just like all other actors and entertainers do. You seem to have a very strange view of what a drag queen is!

 

[Thermal]

RuPaul is flamboyant in real life but it you do a bit of looking you'll see he only puts on his drag costume for some of his work. At the social events he attends you will see him dressed as 'a man". He is a drag queen the same way a professional comedian is a comedian.

I get what you are saying, but are you sure that being a drag queen isn't more of an identity thing, that they simply capitalize on? That's been more my impression.

I have a hard time thinking that guys who dedicate so much of their lives to presenting as women do not have it hard wired as part of who they are. Like, i kinda doubt the average straight guy thinks "ya know, I've got a good butt and I wouldn't mind shaving my legs and wearing heels. Think I'll become a drag queen".

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'd love to know what any of this matters.

"What's your motivation and character arc for putting clothes on in a way I don't like?" would have a lot of red added to it to even be a red herring.

 

[Darat]

I get what you are saying, but are you sure that being a drag queen isn't more of an identity thing, that they simply capitalize on? That's been more my impression.

I have a hard time thinking that guys who dedicate so much of their lives to presenting as women do not have it hard wired as part of who they are. Like, i kinda doubt the average straight guy thinks "ya know, I've got a good butt and I wouldn't mind shaving my legs and wearing heels. Think I'll become a drag queen".

Yes very sure that for most drag performers drag is something they do, like a musician, like a painter, like a comedian, like a clown and so on. Bozo the clown doesn't wear huge shoes, white make-up and kill children when he isn't performing as a clown.

 

[Thermal]

Yes very sure that for most drag performers drag is something they do, like a musician, like a painter, like a comedian, like a clown and so on. Bozo the clown doesn't wear huge shoes, white make-up and kill children when he isn't performing as a clown.

I dunno, man. The Drag Story Hour group was cited upthread saying that drag queens were "queer identities". Should we correct them? They seem kinda authoritative.

 

[Darat]

I dunno, man. The Drag Story Hour group was cited upthread saying that drag queens were "queer identities". Should we correct them? They seem kinda authoritative.

DSH pays drag performers for their performance, like they would a comedian doing a reading at a library and so on. From Wikipedia:

"The funds buy books, some DSH events do book giveaways, go for paying the queens, and training to ensure the queens "talk effectively to children and their parents about gender identity and drag"​

Yes there is another goal beyond simply getting kids reading and interested in reading but don't see how that matches up to your idiosyncratic view of men who put on a performance as a drag queen. The drag is a performance. (And yes I am sure you can find some drag queen saying something different somewhere, but one white crow is only an issue when using a strict formal approach to logic.)

 

[Thermal]

DSH pays drag performers for their performance, like they would a comedian doing a reading at a library and so on.

Right. They are paying people who have what they call queer identities to be positive role models for said queer identities. I don't see what the money changing hands has to do with an identity.

Yes there is another goal beyond simply getting kids reading and interested in reading but don't see how that matches up to your idiosyncratic view of men who put on a performance as a drag queen.

It's not my view. I'm trying to get a handle on exactly what it is from more authoritative sources than random ISF posters who don't seem authoritative. Pretty much all seem in agreement that being a drag queen is an identity predominantly associated with gay culture. The two most oft cited drag queens in this thread have been Danny La Rue and RuPaul- both gay men. The clubs in Atlantic City are also gay bars, and incidentally at least one a well-known front for male prostitution. But AC is pretty sleazy all around, so that's probably not a good barometer. I'm open to any other authoritative sources.

The drag is a performance. (And yes I am sure you can find some drag queen saying something different somewhere, but one white crow is only an issue when using a strict formal approach to logic.)

Ya pretty sure the white crow would be one random Homer Simpson guy who happens to be a drag queen on the side. The majority seem to fit into a particular identity.

I'm open to correction, because as I've said repeatedly, this is more my impression from Wiki and DHS and elsewhere. Bald claims are a little weak, tho.

 

[wareyin]

Right. They are paying people who have what they call queer identities to be positive role models for said queer identities. I don't see what the money changing hands has to do with an identity.

Since this is your claim, can you quote where they claim that all of the drag performers have queer identities?

 

[Thermal]

Since this is your claim, can you quote where they claim that all of the drag performers have queer identities?

It's not my claim, it's DHS's, already cited. And at no point do I or they say "all".

And since you are starting this **** already, I'm out. Not getting drug deeper into these horse **** pedantic squabbles.

 

[wareyin]

It's not my claim, it's DHS's, already cited. And at no point do I or they say "all".

And since you are starting this **** already, I'm out. Not getting drug deeper into these horse **** pedantic squabbles.

You're twisting DHS's words into something they're not. I'm asking you to provide the exact quote that says what you're claiming now. It's not at all pedantry to note your claims =/= the DHS statement.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It depends. When you're talking about matters of taste, and we are, it's not as easy. Here, I'll give you an example:

Why do those things suit your tastes? What is it about those things that make them suit your tastes, and not other things?

Sheesh. I like crochet. It's a new hobby for me. I like the soothing nature of the counting involved, and the pattern repitition - that calms my mind and appeals to my innate likeness for all things mathy. I also enjoy the physical aspect of it, the honing of fine motor skills and the need for a degree of ambidexterity - I've never been particularly good with my hands, so having something that teaches my fingers to behave and do what my brain tells them is satisfying. I also really enjoy the creative aspects of it. From basic patterns, I can extrapolate, and once I've learned the "theory" behind a particular pattern or shape, it opens up all sorts of possibilities for me. For example, I recently followed a pattern to make a hat that looks like a monster head with teeth. From that basis, I now know how to make a versatile hood to use as a base, how to make applique patterns for eyes and nose, how to make teeth and attach them to the edge of the hood, and how to make a snake which curls. This then provides me the ability to alter that pattern and to expand into variations on a theme so I can make things to suit my tastes and the tastes of those I make things for.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Oh, come on. A drag queen is dressing up as the opposite sex, not trying to pass himself off as BEING a woman. That's like claiming a person dressing up as a vampire on Halloween is really trying to pass himself off as a vampire.

I would argue that they're not dressing up as the opposite sex, they're dressing up as a caricature of the opposite sex.

Which is my single largest problem with drag. The performances are not a realistic presentation, it's not done to honor and show respect for females.

They are a parody of the female sex. Performed by males.

 

[Emily's Cat]

EEEeeeeeyyyyeeaaaahhhh not so much. I don't think very many drag queens frock up in order to fool people into thinking they're actually women. They frock up to put on a show.

You're exactly right. They frock up to put on a show that parodies and caricatures females.

 

[wareyin]

I would argue that they're not dressing up as the opposite sex, they're dressing up as a caricature of the opposite sex.

Which is my single largest problem with drag. The performances are not a realistic presentation, it's not done to honor and show respect for females.

They are a parody of the female sex. Performed by males.

The Sandman on NetFlix has a character that does a drag performance. That show alone demonstrates how unfamiliar you are with the subject you're making pronouncements from on high about.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You'd be wrong.

Alright, let's take your position. It's nothing more than a costume.

Why then, is it so important to protect the privilege of males to wear a caricatured costume of females for entertainment purposes?

Would you support the privilege of any other group of people to wear a caricatured costume of another disenfranchised or oppressed group of people for entertainment purposes?

For example... Do you support the privilege of major league baseball mascots to dress up in a costume that caricatures American First Nations people?

 

[Emily's Cat]

If people are saying that drag queens should not mock women with offensive caricatures, I agree. (Just as stand up comedians should not mock women with offensive caricatures and feminist should not, as they often do, mock women with offensive caricatures).

And certainly there are drag acts that do this

But anyone who bases their opposition to drag on the basis that drag is about mocking women with offensive caricatures is simply being dishonest or uninformed.

In general drag queens have the highest regard for women and in particular the kind of.women they try to portray

It would be quite valid to criticise drag while allowing that the intention is not to mock women.

Just as it is quite valid to criticise Al Jolson while allowing that he had the highest regard for black people and saw his performances as a way of showing solidarity and that he did much to break down barriers for black performers by insisting that he would not perform unless black performers could also perform.

We could criticise his performances while still allowing that he was well liked in the black community.

But if someone criticised the performances of Al Jolson by implying he was a racist who only wanted to mock black people then they are either ignorant or dishonest.

Similarly I cannot take criticism of drag acts as sincere if it is predicated on the assumption that drag is about mocking women with offensive caricatures.

This seems to imply that you support blackface performances, as long as you believe the intent of the performer is not to mock black people?

 

[Darat]

Right. They are paying people who have what they call queer identities to be positive role models for said queer identities. I don't see what the money changing hands has to do with an identity.

Yes but that "queer" (my intense dislike of the usurping of that word means I really do have trouble using it in sentences like this) identity stands separate to the drag performance. Out of drag they would still claim to have a queer identity.

It's not my view. I'm trying to get a handle on exactly what it is from more authoritative sources than random ISF posters who don't seem authoritative. Pretty much all seem in agreement that being a drag queen is an identity predominantly associated with gay culture.

Nope it is a performance character just like an actor - indeed I think likening them to actors is the most apt comparison. That most drag queens would identify with G or B is separate to that.

The two most oft cited drag queens in this thread have been Danny La Rue and RuPaul- both gay men. The clubs in Atlantic City are also gay bars, and incidentally at least one a well-known front for male prostitution. But AC is pretty sleazy all around, so that's probably not a good barometer. I'm open to any other authoritative sources.

Authoritative sources about what? That most drag queens are also gay? Who has disputed this? The only dispute has been who the audience for drag is and has been. As shown several times the majority of the audience for drag acts has been since at least the 70s straight females. (Ignoring drag in other forms of entertainment.)

Ya pretty sure the white crow would be one random Homer Simpson guy who happens to be a drag queen on the side. The majority seem to fit into a particular identity.
I'm open to correction, because as I've said repeatedly, this is more my impression from Wiki and DHS and elsewhere. Bald claims are a little weak, tho.

You seem to be unable to understand that someone's sexuality ie. G or B is separate to their performance character. It's the same way it would be wrong to assume that an actor who has played a serial killer is that character, that identity outside of their performance.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Or to put it another way, this seems to be committing the True Drag Queen fallacy.

Acthooally... It's drawing a distinction between different types of performances, put on for very different reasons.

For a very long time, females were prohibited from performing on stage. They were not allowed to act. As a result of that, all characters in a play, regardless of their sex, were played by males. In that context, a male performing a female character would be attempting to provide as close to a realistic female as they could, just as they would attempt to portray any role in as realistic a fashion as they could. Their objective is to be convincing to the audience, so that the audience doesn't perceive them as being a male while they are in that role.

A male actor who impersonates a celebrity who is female would also be attempting to provide as realist a representation as they could, but would have the added layer of needing to capture a specific individual's personality and affectations in order to be convincing. Their objective is to be viewed as that celebrity by the audience, even if the audience knows they're not the same person. It's an attempt at specific and truthful mimicry of a person.

A drag actor is not performing a female role. Nor are they impersonating a specific female individual. They are making up a "female persona" from their imagination. They aren't trying to be "convincing" as a female, they aren't engaging in mimicry, they're not trying to provide a realistic representation of females. They are intentionally performing a caricature of females.


You reducing them to being interchangeable is equivalent to claiming that Kurt Russel playing the role of Elvis is identical to Shawn Klush performing as an Elvis Impersonator, and that both of those are indistinguishable from John Belushi's caricature of Presley on SNL.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yes very sure that for most drag performers drag is something they do, like a musician, like a painter, like a comedian, like a clown and so on. Bozo the clown doesn't wear huge shoes, white make-up and kill children when he isn't performing as a clown.

FYI - I agree that drag is something people DO, not something they are. IT's also why I think that any mention of transgender stuff has absolutely nothing at all to do with drag, and does not belong in this discussion.