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Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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Upchurch said:
Well, what of it? Do we punish all trans people because of a few?
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We punish all cis men because of a few, if keeping them out of female spaces counts as punishment. I don't think it really is, though.

Self ID is ripe for exploitation by predators. As a means of granting access to female spaces, it is incredibly dangerous. And the danger isn't just hypothetical, we have already seen examples. We can expect to see more as self ID expands. I don't know why that's hard for you to grasp, or why you think people who object to it are somehow bigoted.
 
Upchurch said:
I mean, how could it not be?



So much to unpack, there.
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And yet you've failed miserably to unpack any of it.
Are you imagining a trans woman whipping around the one feature that she's the most self-conscious about because it is a constant reminder of how her body doesn't fit her?
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Did I mention a trans woman?
No, I did not. Which is entirely the point and the problem with self-ID.
I highly recommend spending some time with transgender people. Maybe read a book written by a trans person.

ETA: FWIW, I've been in an organization with a trans man for a little over 2 decades and we've been in the men's room at the same time. He transitioned way before I knew him, but he still grabs a stall when changing or otherwise attending to his business. I can't think of him as anything other than a man and a pretty damn good sax player.
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None of that is relevant at all to the problems that self-ID opens up.

Your anecdote simply illustrates that you completely miss the point. If a woman sees a person whom they perceive to be a man flagrantly naked in the women's locker room, and they complain, they risk being branded as a transphobic bigot.

In your world it is a hate crime for a woman to complain about a man in the women's locker room. To be clear, I am not misgendering a trans-woman here. I am talking about a person who to all appearance is a man.

Here is a case which illustrates the point. To be clear, this was a cis-man illustrating that staff are powerless to keep him out of the women's locker room. It's not relative to trans people, but it is relative to self-id:
Around 5:30 p.m. on Feb. 8, a man wearing board shorts entered the women's locker room at Evans Pool and took of his shirt, according to Seattle Parks and Recreation.

Women alerted staff, who told the man to leave, but he said "the law has changed and I have a right to be here."

As far as policy to protect everyone, Seattle Parks spokesman David Takami says they're still working on the issue. Right now, there's no specific protocol for how someone should demonstrate their gender in order to access a bathroom. Employees just rely on verbal identification or physical appearance, and this man offered neither.
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No one was arrested in this case and police weren't called, even though the man returned a second time while young girls were changing for swim practice.
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https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/02/17/transgender-rule-washington-state-man-undresses-locker-room/80501904/

What method would you suggest that staff may use to validate someone's self-ID in order to keep cis-men out of the women's locker room?

ETA: this person did claim to be trans, but exhibited behavior that you seem to be unable to imagine a trans-woman doing:
A Greene County mother said she was "upset" and "shaken" after a confrontation inside the women's locker room at the Y.

According to a police report, the woman was at the YMCA with her two teenage daughters, a 13-year-old and a 16-year-old.

The woman said she saw "a completely naked man" who was "facing away from his locker" and "completely exposed to the rest of the locker area."

According to the police report, when confronted, the woman said, "She asked him if he was a woman, to which the man replied that he was."

The woman also said the director of the YMCA told her they couldn't keep men out of the women's locker room.
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https://www.wlwt.com/article/womens-locker-room-incident-at-area-ymca-stirs-controversy/42737131#

Is this a trans-woman or a cis-man taking advantage of the rules?
How can you tell the difference?

Think about it from a problem solving approach rather than from a political approach. Because it's nor really a political question.
 
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Ziggurat said:
We punish all cis men because of a few, if keeping them out of female spaces counts as punishment. I don't think it really is, though.
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Trans men and cis men use the men’the bathroom. Cis women use the women’s bathroom. Where are trans women supposed to go?

Ziggurat said:
Self ID is ripe for exploitation by predators. As a means of granting access to female spaces, it is incredibly dangerous. And the danger isn't just hypothetical, we have already seen examples. We can expect to see more as self ID expands. I don't know why that's hard for you to grasp, or why you think people who object to it are somehow bigoted.
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I recognize that trans women also human beings who sometimes need to pee. Odds are, most of them have been using the women’s bathroom for years and nobody knew or cared. This moral panic is similar to the gay moral panic of the late 20th century. Given time, it will likely seem just as silly.
 
Upchurch said:
Well, what of it? Do we punish all trans people because of a few?
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The point is not to punish anyone.
The point is to recognize that self-ID creates loopholes that can be exploited and consider ways to close those loopholes.
 
Upchurch said:
Trans men and cis men use the men’the bathroom. Cis women use the women’s bathroom. Where are trans women supposed to go?


I recognize that trans women also human beings who sometimes need to pee. Odds are, most of them have been using the women’s bathroom for years and nobody knew or cared. This moral panic is similar to the gay moral panic of the late 20th century. Given time, it will likely seem just as silly.
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Sorry, but this is a simplistic one-dimensional viewpoint.

Of course trans-women need a place to pee. No one wants to deny them that. The problem is that the proposed means effectively eliminates the segregated spaces that some (most?) women in our society feel they need in order to feel safe.

You are suggesting that we should remove the feeling of safety from cis-women in order to give trans-women a place where they can feel safe.

And since it's repeatedly ignored, I will again point out that it is cis-men not necessarily trans-women that cis-women feel they are being put at risk from.
 
Upchurch said:
Trans men and cis men use the men’the bathroom. Cis women use the women’s bathroom. Where are trans women supposed to go?
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Who counts as a trans woman?

If it’s just self ID, then there is no meaningful distinction between cis men and trans women. So if you don’t want cis men in the women’s bathroom, then self ID isn’t going to work.

I recognize that trans women also human beings who sometimes need to pee. Odds are, most of them have been using the women’s bathroom for years and nobody knew or cared.
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I don’t think you understand the implications of what you are saying.

If nobody knew, then they didn’t have to rely on self ID. Passing means that other people are IDing you as that sex. People didn’t care because predators couldn’t easily exploit the accommodations allowed to trans people, because you had to pass, at least to a significant degree, to be afforded that accommodation. That was a huge barrier for predators. But now that barrier is being torn down with self ID. And you really can’t understand how that changes things?

This moral panic is similar to the gay moral panic of the late 20th century. Given time, it will likely seem just as silly.
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No. Given time, people will realize that self ID is an insane basis on which to grant access to sex segregated spaces. As you acknowledged, the old system worked. We don’t need self ID to accommodate trans people.
 
LondonJohn said:
What?

Are you unaware that being gay is entirely a state of mind? That the "visible" consequences (showing romantic love to someone of the same sex, having sexual interactions with someone of the same sex, etc) are merely manifestations of that state of mind?

Your attempts to differentiate transgender identity as somehow different, on the basis that "there's no physical evidence of it", is both risibly unpleasant and incorrect. And it's this sort of reactionary, bigoted thinking which is such a barrier for transgender people. Fortunately the experts in the mainstream medical community, plus progressive legislatures around the world, understand that your "arguments" about the validity of transgender identity are flat wrong.

And more fortunately still - though it's still sad, and a very poor reflection on certain sectors in society - the viewpoint you represent will a) rightly die out within the next decade or two, and b) be looked upon in time with a sense of wonderment and abhorrence: "Did people really use to think that way about transgender identity??" (just as has happened wrt societal views about homosexuality).
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Your wishful thinnking does you no credit.
 
Ziggurat said:
No. Given time, people will realize that self ID is an insane basis on which to grant access to sex segregated spaces. As you acknowledged, the old system worked. We don’t need self ID to accommodate trans people.
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The “old system” worked so long as trans gender people could pass without notice. As I mentioned above, sometimes cis women can’t even pass as cis women if the culture warrior bathroom guardian is misogynistic enough.

Okay. So. What do you suggest? What is the solution to this problem? Government licensed gender ID cards issued to every child when they start going to school, that are required to enter bathrooms and locker rooms?
 
Upchurch said:
The “old system” worked so long as trans gender people could pass without notice. As I mentioned above, sometimes cis women can’t even pass as cis women if the culture warrior bathroom guardian is misogynistic enough.

Okay. So. What do you suggest? What is the solution to this problem? Government licensed gender ID cards issued to every child when they start going to school, that are required to enter bathrooms and locker rooms?
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The old system worked - and the self ID came along - and now the system doesn't work...

Hmmm, what a puzzle..
 
Upchurch said:
The “old system” worked so long as trans gender people could pass without notice. As I mentioned above, sometimes cis women can’t even pass as cis women if the culture warrior bathroom guardian is misogynistic enough.

Okay. So. What do you suggest? What is the solution to this problem? Government licensed gender ID cards issued to every child when they start going to school, that are required to enter bathrooms and locker rooms?
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You seem to be taking a stance of, "We must do something. Self ID is something. We must do self ID."

If you don't like the old system, then wanting it to change is fine. But self ID is worse than the old system. Come up with something better if you don't like the old system.
 
LondonJohn said:
Are you unaware that being gay is entirely a state of mind?
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I'm aware that gay people aren't imposing any obligations on or demanding accommodations from me, so I don't really care who is or isn't gay. I never need to make a determination about whether someone is or isn't.
 
Lplus said:
The old system worked - and the self ID came along - and now the system doesn't work...

Hmmm, what a puzzle..
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The "old system" only worked because trans people were largely closeted about being trans and it never worked for trans kids. That system is never going to survive in a society that has greater acceptance of trans people. As I said, there is no putting the genie back in the bottle.

So, what would you suggest moving forward?
 
Ziggurat said:
Who counts as a trans woman?

If it’s just self ID, then there is no meaningful distinction between cis men and trans women. So if you don’t want cis men in the women’s bathroom, then self ID isn’t going to work.



I don’t think you understand the implications of what you are saying.

If nobody knew, then they didn’t have to rely on self ID. Passing means that other people are IDing you as that sex. People didn’t care because predators couldn’t easily exploit the accommodations allowed to trans people, because you had to pass, at least to a significant degree, to be afforded that accommodation. That was a huge barrier for predators. But now that barrier is being torn down with self ID. And you really can’t understand how that changes things?



No. Given time, people will realize that self ID is an insane basis on which to grant access to sex segregated spaces. As you acknowledged, the old system worked. We don’t need self ID to accommodate trans people.
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Cis men can go into women's bathrooms any time they like. And they've been able to do so since time immemorial. Those cis men are degenerate.

And, by the way, if either a trans woman or a cis man starts waving their genitals around deliberately in a women's bathroom/changing area, that's ample grounds for investigation and possibly criminal charges.
 
Nessie said:
Adam Graham, the man pretending to be a woman, is given an extended prison sentence of 8 years and another 3 on licence, for the rapes he committed.

https://www.judiciary.scot/home/sen...ces-and-opinions/2023/02/28/hma-v-isla-bryson

It is a shame the Judges sentencing maintained the fiction he is a she, by only using his pretend female name and avoiding any use of pronouns.
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Erm... she's a trans woman. A trans woman who - absolutely correctly and justly - will be placed into a men's prison instead of a women's prison.

As I said before: trans women prisoners who have any history of violent/sexual crimes against cis women should never be considered for placement in women's prisons. This is a crystal clear situation where proportionate actions override the notion that trans women deserve to be housed in women's prisons.

Be in no doubt, however, that trans women prisoners who have no history of violent/sexual crimes against cis women, and who pass a safety assessment, WILL continue (correctly) to be placed in the women's estate. And they will be carefully monitored with the women's estate - if there are any (credible, supportable) instances of miscreant/offending behaviour towards cis women prisoners, the trans woman will be rehoused in a men's prison and receive other penalties.

Evidence shows, incidentally, that even when one or more trans woman prisoners are placed in a given women's prison, cis women prisoners are hugely more at risk of violent/sexual offending from other cis women prisoners than from trans women prisoners.
 
Ziggurat said:
I'm aware that gay people aren't imposing any obligations on or demanding accommodations from me, so I don't really care who is or isn't gay. I never need to make a determination about whether someone is or isn't.
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That's entirely immaterial to the question of whether or not transgender identity is a valid condition (ie it is not a mental health disorder).
 
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