Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

[Upchurch]

Well jeez if only I've spent like 10 threads now begging anyone to maybe define it beyond "Because I say so."

Define what?

My not understanding what anyone is actually saying isn't entirely my fault.

"You don't understand it's the subjective identity" yeah I heard you and everyone else the first 500 times. That's terms are meaningless.

I don't believe I said "subjective identity".

You're just rewording "Because I say so." over and over.

I promise you, I'm not.

I'm saying "because they say so." Where "they" are the kids who have a much better handle this situation than we do, just like my generation had a much better handle on homosexuality than my parents did and they had a better handle on racism than their parents.

The only scenario where trans and gender-fluid get forcibly shoved back into the closet is an athoritarian scenario and that could only last for so long.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Again I'm not being unreasonable, bigoted, or any other nasty term for simply expecting what we are talking about to be defined beyond that of a purely personally defined internal identity.

 

[Samson]

True, but how much choice did you really have about your favourite colour or your favourite food?

I think it is comparable enough. Sorry if the word 'preference' doesn't cover the spectrum.

I am certain you can cultivate tastes for food and colour in a way you can never cultivate a sexual preference.
Also I do believe that men who wish they were women can never change that. The difference is gay can be done safely, trans it seems can never be done safely.

 

[Upchurch]

Again I'm not being unreasonable, bigoted, or any other nasty term for simply expecting what we are talking about to be defined beyond that of a purely personally defined internal identity.

Agreed. I would only ask why you need something defined beyond socially defined terms?

I disagree that the any of the terms we are talking about are purely personally defined. There is no question that the terms are in transition (pun intended), but as Thor said, all words are made up.

 

[LondonJohn]

All the "Okay but this was said about the previous minority group so therefore I'm right' argument do not work.

Again, and I'm not dropping this. Gays and women and blacks and disabled people can all articulate what is different about them in a way that matters. The history of civil rights is not a mush-mouthed "I say I'm different, case closed."

This is simply wrong, I'm afraid.

Firstly, of course it's instructive to look at the way society has considered other minority groups in the past. And homosexuality is probably the best indicator in this respect, because (IMO) very similar dynamics apply as to transgender identity: both are conditions that narrow-minded people with reactionary, bigoted viewpoints can (and do) denigrate and deny along the lines of "I'm not homosexual/transgender, and I know I'm normal, so homosexuality/transgender identity must therefore be abnormal, and anyone claiming to be homosexual/transgender must therefore be either lying (perhaps for material advantage) or mentally ill".

And it's both interesting and highly instructive that a) pretty much the same dynamic is happening wrt transgender identity as happened a few decades ago to homosexuality; b) homosexuality is (fortunately) now considered by the vast majority to be valid rather than deviant; and c) the very same groups which have been steadfast in their opposition to homosexuality (hard-line religious institutions, hard-right politicians and opinion-formers, etc) are also in the vanguard of opposition to acceptance/full accomodation of those with transgender identity.

Secondly, I again take issue with this idea about "articulating what's different about them in a way that matters", and the suggestion that transgender identity cannot do this and therefore somehow doesn't "deserve" to be looked at in the same way as homosexuality/civil rights/women's rights. This sounds to me like an extremely narrow-minded and intolerant view of transgender identity, and one that's borne of a fundamental lack of understanding.

Fortunately (once again), the whole of mainstream medical science and medical practice, plus virtually every progressive law-making body around the world, doesn't assess transgender identity in the way that you choose to do. I look forward to your PoV on transgender identity dying out, and ultimately being looked upon with a rightful sense of incredulity and abhorrence.

 

[LondonJohn]

"It's bigoted to expect a difference to actually be a difference" isn't the argument you think it is.

Would you be able to explain what you mean here? It currently makes very little sense to me.

 

[LondonJohn]

Again gay men and BDSM enthusiasts and every other comparison doesn't work because those groups have criteria beyond "purely internal self declaration."

You do realise (or maybe you don't?) that it's entirely possible to be, for example, a gay man who never actually expresses his homosexuality in any observable manifestation (ie he never develops a romantic togetherness with another man, nor has any kind of sexual activity with another man, etc)?

By your criteria, since this man is homosexual by "purely internal self-declaration", does this somehow invalidate his homosexual identity?

 

[Elaedith]

You do realise (or maybe you don't?) that it's entirely possible to be, for example, a gay man who never actually expresses his homosexuality in any observable manifestation (ie he never develops a romantic togetherness with another man, nor has any kind of sexual activity with another man, etc)?

By your criteria, since this man is homosexual by "purely internal self-declaration", does this somehow invalidate his homosexual identity?

As has already been pointed out (many times) sexual orientation has a clear, non-circular definition. Relying on somebody's word that this definition applies to them is not the same as making a circular definition based on identity.

If the definition of a gay person is 'anybody who identifies as a gay person' then a person who is exclusively attracted to the opposite sex can be a gay person, and the definition is meaningless.

 

[LondonJohn]

As has already been pointed out (many times) sexual orientation has a clear, non-circular definition. Relying on somebody's word that this definition applies to them is not the same as making a circular definition based on identity.

If the definition of a gay person is 'anybody who identifies as a gay person' then a person who is exclusively attracted to the opposite sex can be a gay person, and the definition is meaningless.

Your clear implication here is that (in your opinion) there's nothing more to transgender identity than declaring that one has transgender identity.

But of course that's simply flat wrong. As has already been pointed out (many times), most societies have deeply-entrenched sets of gender roles/expectations/attitudes/behaviours. And as such, when (for example) someone assigned female/woman at birth comes to realise that they do not internally inhabit society's version of "woman", and that instead they internally identify as society's version of "man".... this is how/why they come to have transgender identity. It's not a circular definition, and it's not a meaningless definition.

You don't have to take my word for it of course. There's plenty of reliable literature around which lucidly shows a) what transgender identity is and how it manifests itself, and b) how/why it is now treated within the entirety of mainstream medicine (both medical science and medical practice) as valid in its own right.

I know I've pointed this out many times.... but do you seriously never pause to think about why the whole of mainstream medicine treats transgender identity as valid and fully worthy (usually) of affirmation* (and any therapies/treatments that would help with affirmation for each different transgender person), while at the same time, mainstream medicine treats (for example) someone claiming to identify as a dolphin/Napoleon/attack helicopter as a mentally ill person requiring diagnosis and conversion therapy?


* For adults presenting with transgender identity, that is - clinicians already know well that the situation is much more complex when it comes to minors.

 

[d4m10n]

As has already been pointed out (many times), most societies have deeply-entrenched sets of gender roles/expectations/attitudes/behaviours. And as such, when (for example) someone assigned female/woman at birth comes to realise that they do not internally inhabit society's version of "woman", and that instead they internally identify as society's version of "man".... this is how/why they come to have transgender identity.

I've met more than a few butch lesbians who reject femininity in favor of the virtues and styles traditionally ascribed to masculinity. They swagger, wear a fair bit of flannel and denim, fix up stuff around the house, and even change their own oil. What makes them different than what you've described above, aside from self-identification?

 

[Upchurch]

I've met more than a few butch lesbians who reject femininity in favor of the virtues and styles traditionally ascribed to masculinity. They swagger, wear a fair bit of flannel and denim, fix up stuff around the house, and even change their own oil. What makes them different than what you've described above, aside from self-identification?

I have a former band mate who i wouldn't call "butch", per se, bit some idiot at a bar tried to prevent her from using the women's restroom.

The difference? She doesn't identify as male, I'm guessing?

 

[Elaedith]

Your clear implication here is that (in your opinion) there's nothing more to transgender identity than declaring that one has transgender identity.

But of course that's simply flat wrong. As has already been pointed out (many times), most societies have deeply-entrenched sets of gender roles/expectations/attitudes/behaviours. And as such, when (for example) someone assigned female/woman at birth comes to realise that they do not internally inhabit society's version of "woman", and that instead they internally identify as society's version of "man".... this is how/why they come to have transgender identity. It's not a circular definition, and it's not a meaningless definition.

As has been pointed out many times, the only way you can avoid the circular, meaningless definition is to re-define 'woman' and 'man' as identification with gender stereotypes, which is sexist and regressive. It is just the flip side of saying that a woman who isn't feminine enough isn't a real woman.

And whenever this is pointed out, activists insist that there is some distinction between a women who is gender non-conforming and a transman, but can't explain what, and it reverts back to the circular and meaningless identity definition. The reason they can't say what is because they cannot acknowledge that the difference is whether or not somebody is unhappy with their sex, due to sex denialism. They would rather induce dysphoria in children and adolescents by putting them on a pathway to thinking their body is wrong if they don't identify with a gender stereotype.

On top of that, we have had decades of people fighting for the right for anyone to reject gender stereotypes and choose whatever roles and behaviours suit their personality, IOW, to be themselves. Yet suddenly we have people pretending that up until now we thought all males were happy to conform to the 'man' stereotype, and all females were happy to conform to the 'woman' stereotype, and anybody who didn't was mentally ill, but now we realise they aren't mentally ill, but can't be themselves unless they get a label, socially constructed identity, flag, special words, affirmation from everybody else, and possibly invasive medical treatment.

Ridiculous.

 

[d4m10n]

She doesn't identify as male, I'm guessing?

"...aside from self-identification?"

 

[Upchurch]

"...aside from self-identification?"

Why aside from that? What's wrong with self-Identification?

Do you often verify your friends' gender purity?

 

[TomB]

Why aside from that? What's wrong with self-Identification?

Do you often verify your friends' gender purity?

It's not about "gender purity." Self-ID makes enforcement of segregated spaces difficult. A woman or a girl sees a person walking around the women's locker room with their penis exposed. Looks like a man. But if she complains that a man is in the women's room, she is a bigot.

Effectively, it opens segregated spaces to the opposite sex with no recourse.

 

[Upchurch]

It's not about "gender purity."

I mean, how could it not be?

Self-ID makes enforcement of segregated spaces difficult. A woman or a girl sees a person walking around the women's locker room with their penis exposed. Looks like a man. But if she complains that a man is in the women's room, she is a bigot.

So much to unpack, there. Are you imagining a trans woman whipping around the one feature that she's the most self-conscious about because it is a constant reminder of how her body doesn't fit her?

I highly recommend spending some time with transgender people. Maybe read a book written by a trans person.

ETA: FWIW, I've been in an organization with a trans man for a little over 2 decades and we've been in the men's room at the same time. He transitioned way before I knew him, but he still grabs a stall when changing or otherwise attending to his business. I can't think of him as anything other than a man and a pretty damn good sax player.

 

[lionking]

I mean, how could it not be?



So much to unpack, there. Are you imagining a trans woman whipping around the one feature that she's the most self-conscious about because it is a constant reminder of how her body doesn't fit her?

Are you saying it doesn’t happen? High profile transwoman swimmer Lia Thomas’ behaviour was complained about by teammates about for this very reason The response to the complaint? The teamsmates were told they would be expelled from the team because they complained.

And if transwomen are so self conscious about their penises, very, very few are making attempts to either remove them of otherwise hide them. There have been many links in this thread about self ID’d transwomen exposing their penises.

 

[Upchurch]

Are you saying it doesn’t happen? High profile transwoman swimmer Lia Thomas’ behaviour was complained about by teammates about for this very reason The response to the complaint? The teamsmates were told they would be expelled from the team because they complained.

I never said there were no ******** in the world.

And if transwomen are so self conscious about their penises, very, very few are making attempts to either remove them of otherwise hide them. There have been many links in this thread about self ID’d transwomen exposing their penises.

That’s a non sequitur. Just because you have links to some sensational stories, it does not follow that “very, very few are making attempts” to present as their gender.

What I’m suggesting is that this thread about transgender people is missing perspectives and voices from transgender people.

 

[lionking]

I never said there were no ******** in the world.

No you didn't. You did ask how it could be imagined that trans women could be exposing their penises. Very easily I would say.

 

[Upchurch]

No you didn't. You did ask how it could be imagined that trans women could be exposing their penises. Very easily I would say.

Do you think they are all ********?