Cont: The One Covid-19 Science and Medicine Thread Part 4

[marting]

You seem to think of prior infection merely in terms of a benefit to the immune system. However, The coronavirus can attack multiple organs and weaken overall immunity for months. Its impacts are evident in global death rates that remain high. (Bloomberg, Dec 14, 2022)

That's true, but there are studies that show increased immunity to subsequent infection from prior infection. And lots of studies that show vaxxes are highly effective but wane quicker than immunity from prior infection.

That said, there's lots of evidence that infections increase a range of sequelae that can cause severe disease in some. Even death. Most likely the cause of the "excess deaths" anti-vaxxers are stuck on. However, the study doesn't include those. These are PCR diagnosed Covid-19 deaths.

 

[The Atheist]

Don't you usually argue that oldies dying from Covid-19 would have died in a couple of weeks anyway? 'Already wearing toe-tags', or something like that.

Correct, and I've also stated that a very small number of other people die from it, too.

In the case of kids, covid deaths are lower than suicide, homicide and several infectious diseases.

When you've solved those, I'll make sure everyone takes you seriously.

 

[marting]

Orignal Antigenic Sin - With Benefits!

An interesting piece in the Lancet exploring imprinting and ways it might not be all bad.

Recalling ancestral SARS-CoV-2 variants: is it an original sin with benefits?
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(23)00007-5/fulltext

Som interesting tidbits:

Several studies examined the immune response to infections with omicron variants, and these, too, revealed evidence of immune imprinting.
...
But the insights gained through studies of neutralising antibodies do not seem to translate into higher mortality. Priming with wildtype SARS-CoV-2 through three vaccine doses upholds efficacy against the most important outcomes of vaccination, severe disease, and death in the case of an omicron infection.
...
The action of immune imprinting, by upholding high neutralising antibody titres against ancestral SARS-CoV-2 strains in the population, might help eradicate ancestral strains, in favour of attenuated strains circulating in consecutive waves.
...
We can learn from the observation that the response towards newer omicron variants is enhanced in magnitude and breadth through previous infection,10 which exposes the immune system to wider range of non-neutralising epitopes.
...
Meanwhile, it should be considered that immune imprinting might be offering a wall of protection from even more severe variants derived from ancestral strains.

 

[The Atheist]

If that holds, the vaccines will give us the best of both worlds in terms of building real herd immunity.

Let's hope!

 

[dann]

Correct, and I've also stated that a very small number of other people die from it, too.

In the case of kids, covid deaths are lower than suicide, homicide and several infectious diseases.

When you've solved those, I'll make sure everyone takes you seriously.

You shouldn't concern yourself with people taking me seriously. You should stop making stuff up in order to trivialize SARS-CoV-2. Then people might actually begin to take you seriously:

Covid-19 deaths displace influenza and pneumonia, becoming the top cause of death caused by any (!) infectious or respiratory disease. It caused “substantially” more deaths than any vaccine-preventable disease historically, the researchers wrote..
Covid-19 is a leading cause of death for children in the US, despite relatively low mortality rate (CNN, Jan 30, 2023)

There was a great new article about the ways of Covid trivializers at Science-Based Medicine yesterday:
Medical Conservatives: A High Rate of COVID-Myocarditis is “Good News”, A Low Rate of Vaccine-Myocarditis is “Deeply Concerning”

 

[dann]

That's true, but there are studies that show increased immunity to subsequent infection from prior infection. And lots of studies that show vaxxes are highly effective but wane quicker than immunity from prior infection.

Yes, increased immunity to subsequent infection with SARS-CoV-2 from prior infection with SARS-CoV-2, which wasn't the point. And since reinfections have become quite common as the virus mutates, it is obviously better to get vaxxed and try to avoid getting infected than to hope for strengthened immunity by infection. In particular when immunity in general is weakened, which may account for the recent extreme rise in some infectious diseases: 18 nye tilfælde af blodforgiftninger på grund af antibiotikaresistente stafylokokker (MRSA) (SSI, Dec 16, 2022)

That said, there's lots of evidence that infections increase a range of sequelae that can cause severe disease in some. Even death. Most likely the cause of the "excess deaths" anti-vaxxers are stuck on. However, the study doesn't include those. These are PCR diagnosed Covid-19 deaths.

Not just infections in general, but C-19 in particular, apparently.
Immunforsvaret er som en fæstning – men corona har angrebstaktik, der kan forklare stigende smitte med andre virusser (TV2.dk, Jan 11, 2023)
The immune system is like a fortress - but coronavirus has an attack strategy that may explain a rise in the transmission of other viruses

 

[The Atheist]

You should stop making stuff up...

Thus proving your total dishonesty - the numbers are in the link, I didn't make anything up.

Here, I'll even copy the text so people can see your latest failed blatant attempt at lying:

Findings Among children and young people aged 0 to 19 years in the US, COVID-19 ranked eighth among all causes of deaths, fifth in disease-related causes of deaths (excluding unintentional injuries, assault, and suicide), and first in deaths caused by infectious or respiratory diseases. COVID-19 deaths constituted 2% of all causes of death in this age group.

 

[Sherkeu]

And since reinfections have become quite common as the virus mutates, it is obviously better to get vaxxed and try to avoid getting infected than to hope for strengthened immunity by infection.

what!!???
Nope.
And I know you have been filled in on the facts so Im not in the mood to do the 'dann dance' of illogical reasoning and tantrums (and weirdly obsessive love for all things Cuban).

"I" wont get the booster they keep texting me about every few weeks. I DO NOT need one.
And my child won't be jabbed. We have had it, and will likely get it again at some point. It's less dangerous for us to have had exposure to the most recent strains and have fullest immune response.
We will fight a future outbreak like any other corona virus, naturally, with the latest antibodies we already have.

That it is not common sense to you is bizarro.

 

[dann]

I DO NOT need one to listen to science.

FTFY - and good luck!

 

[Sherkeu]

FTFY - and good luck!

I follow the real science, not the profitable or politically motivated type.
You do you. Go get jabbed 4 times a year. Knock yourself out.

 

[dann]

Yes, I already noticed that you weren't talking about science in the literal sense of the word but about Republican science.
There is another thread for that.

 

[dann]

Thus proving your total dishonesty - the numbers are in the link, I didn't make anything up.

Here, I'll even copy the text so people can see your latest failed blatant attempt at lying:

Findings Among children and young people aged 0 to 19 years in the US, COVID-19 ranked eighth among all causes of deaths, fifth in disease-related causes of deaths (excluding unintentional injuries, assault, and suicide), and first (!) in deaths caused by infectious or respiratory diseases. COVID-19 deaths constituted 2% of all causes of death in this age group.

The Atheist's claim was:

In the case of kids, covid deaths are lower (!) than suicide, homicide and several infectious diseases.

Which he counters with a quotation that says the opposite of what he claims it does.
So much for his "total dishonesty," his alleged not making "anything up," and his "latest failed blatant attempt at lying."
Or do the words first and lower mean something else in New Zealand?

 

[The Atheist]

The Atheist's claim was:

Which he counters with a quotation that says the opposite of what he claims it does.

My apologies, I see I did make a mistake. I left "non" out of the sentence. There are several non-infectious diseases causing more deaths.

Along with suicide, homicide and accidental deaths.

 

[dann]

It is so sad that I wish we had a crying dog!

The Atheists doesn't even read the numbers in the links he claims to have read! If he did, he might have noticed this:
See table 1, Deaths Among Individuals Aged 0 to 19 years:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2800816
Covid-19: 821 deaths
Influenza and pneumonia: 472 deaths

And if you google "covid-19 ranked eighth," you get a long list of articles telling you that "The study found that COVID-19 ranked (...) first in deaths caused by infectious or respiratory diseases."
But I guess they all got it wrong. Only The Atheist got it right when he claimed that "In the case of kids, covid deaths are lower than suicide, homicide and several infectious diseases."

 

[dann]

My apologies, I see I did make a mistake. I left "non" out of the sentence. There are several non-infectious diseases causing more deaths.

Along with suicide, homicide and accidental deaths.

Kudos for realizing that Covid-19 is number one fatal infectious disease in children. But your mistake wasn't that you "left "non" out of the sentence." Your mistake was jumping to the conclusion that "covid deaths are lower than suicide, homicide and several infectious diseases."
It would be absurd to merely add "and several non-infectious diseases" when you had already mentioned suicide and homicide. In that case, it should have been: "and several other non-infectious diseases"
The reason why you jumped to the wrong conclusion was that it would be in line with the tendency to trivialize Covid-19.

So please remember it from now on: In children and young adults, Covid-19 is first in deaths caused by infectious or respiratory diseases!

 

[dann]

Last edited by The Atheist; Today at 08:20 AM. Reason: Error

The Atheist deleted the actual post that I answered to. It was as rude as they always tend to be, he repeated the claim that Covid-19 kills fewer children and young people than other infectious diseases and that I can't read English, and he included his all time favourite, the laughing dog, which was all I quoted, unfortunately.

If only American had known this trick when he made the REO Speedwagon thread ...

 

[The Atheist]

The reason why you jumped to the wrong conclusion was that it would be in line with the tendency to trivialize Covid-19.I]

There was no wrong conclusion, just one word missing.

Murder, suicide and accidents all cause more deaths than covid. The fact that's the number 1 infectious disease is irrelevant. What measures are you proposing to take against #2?

And I'm not trivialising anything - people are dying, but the very, very few panickers who want the world to stay shut over a disease that's killing very few healthy people are pathetic and need to be told so. When more kids are murdered than are killed by a disease, I think there are far greater priorities.

There is a middle ground that the panickers seem completely unaware of: encourage vaccinations, continue to invest in remedies and new vaccines, continue monitoring for new variants. I haven't seen a non-Chinese person wearing a mask for months, and that's not going to change.

Get over it.

 

[macdoc]

Death is not the only marker. Long covid is terra incognita and a tremendous stress on the health care systems.
The covid now is not the same as 2 years ago. We have much better pallitive treatments but the covid pandemic is far from over.

Immunity does not last, vax or from getting infected ..wearing a mask in crowded public space is little enough to do to protect others
Current covid is one of the THE most infectious diseases around and the long term fall out still unknown.

There is a middle ground between the current lack of mitigation and lock down ala China.

Not there.......yet.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Don't forget the time denominator in these arguments (and it may be that annual does not reflect the intensity of the earliest cases), the other costs (like preventable cardiac deaths that occur when hospitals are overflowing with COVID patients, the economic impact when so many employees are out sick, and the deaths of caregivers leaving children orphaned), then there is the issue of healthcare worker deaths and burnout, and when effective vaccines and anti-virals came on the scene.

Don't forget it's not like no one has attempted to address vehicle fatalities. Many interventions have been taken making cars and roads safer, and there is the political difficulty in addressing firearm deaths, and so on.

You can't simply post raw numbers and claim we can't address or be concerned about COVID unless we pay equal attention to other causes of deaths.

And what macdoc said.


Masks and vaccines are a cost effective intervention. If we didn't have misinformation becoming a political weapon we probably wouldn't be on this particular sidebar.

 

[The Atheist]

Death is not the only marker. Long covid is terra incognita and a tremendous stress on the health care systems.

Yes, and there's a big question mark about long-term harm from repeat infections. Long covid does seem to be more of a pre-2022 issue, though. I'm not seeing the same kind of numbers since Jan '22, despite far more cases.

There is a middle ground between the current lack of mitigation and lock down ala China.

That's exactly my point, and it's backed up by the fact that people are over it. They're not going to wear masks, many aren't getting boosters, and even more aren't taking paxlovid.

We need to encourage sensible actions; demanding stronger measure will be counter-productive.

You can't simply post raw numbers and claim we can't address or be concerned about COVID unless we pay equal attention to other causes of deaths.

That's not what I'm saying. I support sensible measures, but it can't be at the cost of ignoring other - and often worse - problems.

Childhood vaccinations have fallen off a cliff in the past two years: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-02051-w

We need to be working to getting those sorted out before we try to get kids having covid vaccines. Samoa had over 60 children under 4 die from a single measles outbreak in 2019. Covid has killed a total of 29 Samoans across all age groups in three years, including zero children.

Let's keep our priorities straight.