Cont: The Russian invasion of Ukraine part 6

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"BBC propaganda"? Hilarious. Absolutely hilarious.

Firstly because you appear to be swallowing Russian propaganda hook line and sinker, and second because the second link you supplied was from the BBC.

There is no such thing as different kinds of evidence. There is evidence or there is propaganda. Everything that comes out of Russia is propaganda.

Please explain what has led you to believe that the referendum was legitimate when absolutely no other country accepts it? Why do you know better than the governments of literally every country on earth?
and second because the second link you supplied was from the BBC
Yes. Fortunately, the BBC sometimes (but not always) does some very good work. The BBC, The Guardian and the Russian outlet RT.com are among my main sources of information. I believe I need very different sources and points of view to get a balanced understanding of the situation.

If you use only Western news outlets, you might tragically fail to get a balanced view.

What made the referendums legitimate wasn't that they were held strictly under Ukrainian law, but, rather, the fact they seemed to faithfully reflect the views of the people, as polled by international news organizations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#Post-referendum_polls).
 
As a counterpoint to the pro-orc residents of Kherson. There were Ukrainians, loyal to their nation who slit the throats of drunk Russians.

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-kherson-partisan-killings/32160431.html
From your article:
He did not know how to kill, he says, so he Googled it and studied videos on YouTube.

One week later, he says, he walked up behind a Russian soldier -- an anonymous man in a military uniform who was walking out of a bar in the neighborhood where Nedostup had lived for most of his life -- and cut his throat with a knife, killing him.
I didn't know Youtube was a website for learning how to kill people (with a knife ...).
 
From your article:

I didn't know Youtube was a website for learning how to kill people (with a knife ...).

Fortunately for the Ukrainian hero from the story, you can learn all kinds of things on YouTube. A quick search shows a number of channels belonging to martial arts instructors who teach knife fighting.

I fence military saber and small sword and regularly watch YouTube videos to study bouts from various tournaments.
 
Fortunately for the Ukrainian hero from the story, you can learn all kinds of things on YouTube. A quick search shows a number of channels belonging to martial arts instructors who teach knife fighting.

I fence military saber and small sword and regularly watch YouTube videos to study bouts from various tournaments.
OK, but there is a difference between sport, tournaments, and cutting throat for killing.
 
OK, but there is a difference between sport, tournaments, and cutting throat for killing.

There's one great set of videos from ROK SEALS doing knife fighting drills. There are some videos from some Filipino martial arts knife fighting instructors that would likely provide enough direction to dispatch a drunk Russian. That's just on the first page of results.
 
Yes. Fortunately, the BBC sometimes (but not always) does some very good work. The BBC, The Guardian and the Russian outlet RT.com are among my main sources of information. I believe I need very different sources and points of view to get a balanced understanding of the situation.
If you use only Western news outlets, you might tragically fail to get a balanced view.
Here's where you first go wrong. Russia Today is Kremlin propaganda. It's garbage.
What made the referendums legitimate wasn't that they were held strictly under Ukrainian law, but, rather, the fact they seemed to faithfully reflect the views of the people, as polled by international news organizations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#Post-referendum_polls).

No. Why are you disagreeing with the world consensus on this? Why do you think that the clearly sham referendums were in any way legitimate? You've been asked this repeatedly and all you've done is repeat that you believe them. We know you believe them, what we want to know is why. Why do you think you know better than literally everyone else who isn't Russia?
 
Here's where you first go wrong. Russia Today is Kremlin propaganda. It's garbage.


No. Why are you disagreeing with the world consensus on this? Why do you think that the clearly sham referendums were in any way legitimate? You've been asked this repeatedly and all you've done is repeat that you believe them. We know you believe them, what we want to know is why. Why do you think you know better than literally everyone else who isn't Russia?
First of all, let me ask you this: did you finally read this wikipedia link I have provided (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#Post-referendum_polls), yes or no?

It doesn't seem reasonably possible to discuss something you've never read, and have no intention of reading.

Also, your friends at https://www.rt.com/ are waiting for you. What is the title of the first article you currently see on this news website?
 
First of all, let me ask you this: did you finally read this wikipedia link I have provided (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#Post-referendum_polls), yes or no?

Did you?

The disagreement we are having on this is that your position is that the Crimeans are allowed to do whatever they want unilaterally, while the rest of us are saying that the Crimeans can only hold such a referendum under Ukrainian law, which this one wasn't.

Also, your friends at https://www.rt.com/ are waiting for you. What is the title of the first article you currently see on this news website?

"Pentagon clarifies position on aliens"
 
There is such an article on RT.com right now, but it's not the first one I see.

That's because you look for their lies first so you can parrot them.

Are you going to repeat the whopper about Ukraine damaging their own electricity infrastructure?

I do hope the story about the US being complicit in the attacks on orc airfields is true. It probably isn't considering the scum who work for RT but it's fun to imagine it is.
 
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Yes. Fortunately, the BBC sometimes (but not always) does some very good work. The BBC, The Guardian and the Russian outlet RT.com are among my main sources of information. I believe I need very different sources and points of view to get a balanced understanding of the situation.

If you use only Western news outlets, you might tragically fail to get a balanced view.

The overall principle here is very good for one particular use. Understanding what different audiences are being exposed to.

When it comes to understanding the truth about what's going on, there's likely a hidden assumption that's a bit deadly, though. Assuming that the claims of differing sides under different conditions and motivations are equally truthful is an exercise in gullibility, not understanding.

RT has a long history of being utterly untrustworthy, objectively. RT is state propaganda by nature. RT is further subject to Russia's deeply problematic laws restricting truthful publication about Russia's activities. BBC and the Guardian suffer from none of those problems. Putting RT on the same level as them is NOT actually a way to gain a balanced view. It's a path to gullibility.



What made the referendums legitimate wasn't that they were held strictly under Ukrainian law, but, rather, the fact they seemed to faithfully reflect the views of the people, as polled by international news organizations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#Post-referendum_polls).

Again, it's plausible that they reflected the majority view of the people. However, the referendum itself was fundamentally a sham and cannot be treated with legitimacy. Further, the polling that you try use to back your position up is also tainted by Russia's tactics. Russia has a long history of going after dissenters (including via genocide - which Russia may well be doing in Crimea right now to the Tatars in particular), especially the dissenters of certain ethnic groups and on topics like, say, support for Crimea to stay part of Ukraine. They've created a general atmosphere where dissenters are far more likely not to express their opinions truthfully, especially not to some unknown stranger calling out of nowhere, than those who have nothing to fear by legitimately preferring Russia. Going a bit further than that, if that polling ended up showing that Crimeans didn't want to be part of Russia, what would the Crimeans expect Russia's response would be? Almost certainly suppression and genocide, given Russia's normal operation. So there's even more motivation to present a particular image, regardless of the truth. To express it slightly differently, what abused person would openly talk about being abused to someone who 1) might well be just another test by the abuser and 2) couldn't help them (but very much could hurt them if the abuser found out... and the abuser is guaranteed to find out to some extent in this case) anyways? A few would, but most likely wouldn't. That's before getting to those among them that have simply been silenced, potentially in a performative manner to scare the rest into submission.

Thus, the people of Crimea are in a situation where the claimed justification for their annexation into Russia was thoroughly illegitimate and where polling cannot be reasonably trusted. It's Russia that's removed all avenues of potential legitimacy from international consideration other than exerting Russian power to force the rest of the world to accept. That has nothing to do with the will of the Crimean people, though.

There's no path for the will of the Crimean people to matter at all while Russia is in power there. There is potential for Crimea to join Russia legitimately with international acceptance if and only if Crimea is truly free of Russia and the damage is undone.

The disagreement we are having on this is that your position is that the Crimeans are allowed to do whatever they want unilaterally, while the rest of us are saying that the Crimeans can only hold such a referendum under Ukrainian law, which this one wasn't.

As I've poked at, there's more to it than that. His position may be that the Crimeans are allowed to do whatever they want unilaterally, but we can't even trust that it's actually the will of the Crimean people, before getting to how it's illegitimate in every other way.
 
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Are you going to repeat the whopper about Ukraine damaging their own electricity infrastructure?
I believe you misunderstood. The title of the article is:
Damage to Ukrainian civilian infrastructure self-inflicted – Russia
‘Unprofessional actions’ by Kiev's air-defense units during missile strikes on Friday are to blame, Moscow claims
(https://www.rt.com/russia/568422-civilian-infrastructure-damage-strike-ukraine/).

In this article, RT isn't claiming Ukraine damaged their own electricity infrastructure, but their own civilian infrastructure, which is something much more general.

Imagine some debris of some missile perhaps still containing explosive falling down on buildings, during very intense air-defense activity. Seems plausible to me.
 
The disagreement we are having on this is that your position is that the Crimeans are allowed to do whatever they want unilaterally, while the rest of us are saying that the Crimeans can only hold such a referendum under Ukrainian law, which this one wasn't.
Although it's a little simplified, this seems a fairly accurate description of my position to me (and of the one of the other members of this forum).

If Crimea isn't granted what it wants, you can say hello to rebellion, as probably for many regions in the world.
 
If Crimea isn't granted what it wants, you can say hello to rebellion, as probably for many regions in the world.

A hypothetical that's certainly not been shown to be probable in the case of Crimea, specifically. A far more likely case remains Russian shenanigans on that front. Just like when Russia invaded, rather than there being any rebellion against actually being in Ukraine.
 
I believe you misunderstood. The title of the article is:

(https://www.rt.com/russia/568422-civilian-infrastructure-damage-strike-ukraine/).

In this article, RT isn't claiming Ukraine damaged their own electricity infrastructure, but their own civilian infrastructure, which is something much more general.

Imagine some debris of some missile perhaps still containing explosive falling down on buildings, during very intense air-defense activity. Seems plausible to me.

RT, Russia Today is fiction.
 
Back on topic,

Dmitriy Zelenov, a Russian oligarch has reportedly died in France after falling down stairs. He was reportedly against the war.
 
I believe you misunderstood. The title of the article is:

(https://www.rt.com/russia/568422-civilian-infrastructure-damage-strike-ukraine/).

In this article, RT isn't claiming Ukraine damaged their own electricity infrastructure, but their own civilian infrastructure, which is something much more general.

Imagine some debris of some missile perhaps still containing explosive falling down on buildings, during very intense air-defense activity. Seems plausible to me.

None of that's true though. The orcs are launching missiles at civilian infrastructure. Although Ukraine is shooting most of the missiles down, some get through and damage infrastructure. See, more RT lies and you're parroting them. You. Tell. Lies.
 
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