The Supernatural Part II

[IanS]

Hello
Yes. Please read the history of the prophets. or the history of past tribes and nations in Mesopotamia. From Turkey to Egypt. From the 30th century BC to the 7th century AD. There are many books and resources in this regard.

In this context, I recommend reading the biography of Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam, written by the famous researcher Mrs. Karen Armstrong from England. It became the best-selling book of the year in America.
Good luck

Nobody here should waste their time reading books about religious belief.

We do not need to read books that proclaim religious belief, and/or which present tales of ancient people called "prophets" as if they were truly contacted by a heavenly God. We do not need to read such books in order to know that such beliefs about God are untrue ... that is now very clear from modern-day 21st century science ...

... before the early beginnings of modern science ("modern" as distinct from what passed as a form of philosophical science in biblical times) with people like Galileo from around 1600 onwards, a belief in gods seemed very reasonable to almost everyone. At that time nobody had any better explanation for the existence of the world around us all ...

... but without intending to, the next 400 years of scientific discovery, explanation, and education, changed all of that. Everything that was once attributed to an act of God, was eventually discovered, and actually "proved" as much as it's ever possible to prove anything, to be not an act of any God at all, but instead an entirely natural result of inescapable processes in chemistry, biology and physics ...

... and there really is no credible doubt about that - that's what fills all the genuine science research journals with all of their many millions of papers on all of those discoveries since at least the time of Darwin (i.e. circa 1850's) … all of the events described as acts of God in both the Quran, and 500 years before that in the NT Christian bible, and 500 years before that with the prophets in the OT Jewish bible (that's now back to circa 500BC or even 1000BC … so there we are 1600 years before any Quran), and even another 1000 years or more before any of that with the earliest belief of gods in the most ancient Egyptian and other cultures (so we are there back to 3000BC !!) … all of what people believed throughout all of that vast length of time, that is all almost exactly what you Heydarian and other Muslims and Christians still believe today …

… you still believe all that same writing from the same completely uneducated people who lived thousands of years ago, who knew no better than to believe that invisible gods must be controlling all of the things that they did not understand … but where now, since modern-day science, we have investigated absolutely all of those religious beliefs, and every single one has turned out to be nothing whatsoever to do with any imagined gods or heavenly miracles … the scientific answers are absolutely clear and they have been tested and confirmed literally millions of times over, in every possible way conceivable, and the result is that there is definitely no god or God involved in any of it !!

So lets keep on track & stick to the point here – you have spent more than a thousand posts here claiming science revealed in 600 AD in the Quran … but the very same scientists who made all the discoveries that you have ever mentioned, the very same scientists who are the only reason that you have ever even heard of any of it!, completely disagree with you and make it 100% clear that no such God was found in any of it!

 

[JayUtah]

You are constantly insisting that we must believe what your say about your certainty of God. That is not a discussion. That is intolerant insistent preaching from you.

I gather he doesn't consider himself a religious preacher because he believes he has arrived at a belief in a "perfect" religion and a "perfect" holy book by scientific and/or philosophical means, therefore what he's making is a scientific argument, or a philosophical argument, not a sermon. Or he's just delusional. Whichever...

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Hello, dear philosopher
Your conclusion needs to be completed. The attitude of existential philosophy is that; Existence itself is not dependent on essence. That is, it cannot be independent. The creator wants. The same question is repeated from Hawking: Who created the single because every existence in the universe needs a creator. There is only one existence, which is the origin of existence and its creator, which protects its own essence.
He is the only God. In the one and only God, the sequence or circumvention ends. There is no question here.
I need to say one more thing; Do not be too sensitive for the name of God. Whatever name you want for the origin and creator of the universe. In Islam, it is "God".Hoping to meet the dear philosopher

OK. (I'm just following along and munching on my popcorn). I almost hesitate to ask (once again): If everything needs a creator, then who created God?

Paging William of Ockham.

 

[catsmate]

It is said in Surah 7, verse 29 that; (Only the last three words of this verse) Just as I created the universe from nothingness (singularity) and opened it. I will return you as before. And this is very easy for me. Tell me which person or all people in the history of mankind said such a thing. And he has said this very huge and difficult claim. This claim must have been made by a being who dominates the entire universe.
His knowledge and power must dominate the entire universe from the beginning of creation to the end. Time does not surround him. And it is outside of time and universe. Only God has these qualities. It is foolish to say that an illiterate bigot said these words 14 centuries ago. And it is written in the book of the Qur'an. No way it can. No human being, not even all human beings throughout history, can ever say such words. This is a huge claim outside the scope of the universe and time. Only God alone can say. I advise you to think with the truth and reality. Do not be prejudiced.
Thanks

This is scientifically illiterate drivel.
A singularity is not "nothingness".

Your silly need to support your lack of faith in Islamic teaching by trying to distort actual science to reinforce and support it is just pathetic.


Here's an interesting fact: way back in 1783 a CoE pastor named John Michell proposed the existence of what we now call 'black holes'.
He reasoned that light particles, when emanated by a star, would be slowed down by its gravitational pull, and that eventually massive enough object would not allow light to escape.

 

[catsmate]

<snip>

More pathetic, nonsensical, scientifically illiterate drivel.

 

[Leumas]

... Because basically God speaks logically and scientifically in the Qur'an. ...

Wow... what an oxymoron if I have ever seen one... the Quran and what it says that your God says is the very antithesis of science and is the most abject illogic ever written down other than the absurdity it plagiarized its turpitude from called the Bible.

Can you explain what is scientific or logical about Allah seeing it fit or necessary to do the job of blowing into الفرج of his girlfriend Mary to make her pregnant with Jesus

• Was it scientific that Allah had to do the job of blowing in his girlfriend Mary's فرج so that she becomes pregnant with Jesus??

Can you expound on why Allah saw it fit and proper to do this travesty of illogic?

1. Why do the job of blowing into anything... could he not just say be and it be??
2. Why all this to make Jesus... couldn't Jesus have had a human mother and father just like Moses or David or Elijah or any other "prophet" in the Quran... what is so special about Mary and Jesus that Allah needed to do this sordid act in order to make a run of the mill "prophet"???

If you do not know the meaning of the word then copy and paste it into google translator to see what it gives you.

فرج = Vulva
And if you do not know what Vulva means look it up in an English dictionary

And if you are not familiar with the Ayah ... then it is Q66:12... also look at ayah 5:75

​

 

[IanS]

. But logical and correct words that adhere to the principles of logic and science. They are never challenged.
Our school is clear. And we discuss according to the documented principles of logic, philosophy and science. how about you?!
Good luck

Heydarian – why do you think that all of peer-reviewed published science research disgrees with your claims of God revealing science in a 7th century Quran?

What is your explanation for that?

The examples which you give of science in verses of the Quran are all from core fundamental areas of science i.e. discoveries in physics, chemistry and biology (i.e. not from fringe areas like engineering or psychology etc.).

In those core areas of science, there must be (rough guess) about 20,000 or more papers published each year. All of which are explaining new discoveries that are either directly about all the exact same things you have mentioned here as science in the Quran, or else indirectly reporting those same areas of science (e.g., quantum theory, relatively, black holes, big bang, abiogenesis, evolution etc.) …

… but not a single one of those papers has ever claimed to find any evidence of God revealing modern science in a 7th century Quran – why do you think that is? .... 20,000 such studies every year, and not a single one agrees with what you say; why is that?

That's been going on for at least the last 120 years now, i.e. 10,000 to 20,000 papers each year, all directly or indirectly examining all the same claims that you have made, and yet not a single one ever found your claimed evidence of God … that's around 2 million such papers and none of them finding any evidence of your beliefs at all … why do you think that is? …

... the score is about zero out of 2 million for what you say ....but with all 2 million 100% agreeing with what I have pointed out to you so many times – why do you think that is??

 

[Chanakya]

Hello dear professor
I am very pleased to meet you in this thread sometimes.
The main problem of the members in this thread is that; They do not declare their attitude of thinking, philosophical school and logic. And because of these abnormalities occur.
I announced from the beginning; I am a Muslim and my school of philosophy is the authenticity of existence. And I am completely free and independent in declaring my opinions. I am not affiliated with any organization or group or person. completely free But unfortunately, the respected associations do not announce it. What are they afraid of??!!

I acknowledge and appreciate your courtesy, heydarian. I'll try my best not to go out of my way to be discourteous, but I don't know what to say that won't sound rude to you. It's either keep quiet or say my piece. I could have done the other thing, but what the heck, I'll just post this instead. And not to bang on the obvious overly much, but the irony of it all, it compels me to comment briefly on what you've said here to me.

I'm afraid you're not free, heydarian. You're beholden to your lifelong religious indoctrination. You're a slave of the religious teachings about Allah, and the Quran, and Mohammed, and the rest of it, that you've lived with all your life. You're not free at all.

The people here who're contesting your claims with concrete arguments --- as I did as well, months back, before giving up on it as an altogether pointless exercise --- aren't afraid of anything. At least, not in so far as what they're posting here. I don't see why you're imputing random emotions on to them.

You've been shown, time and time again, in crystal clear terms, how every one of your arguments is wanting. Nothing you claim holds up, not in science, nor in logic. As IanS and others have pointed out, philosophy is no use as exclusive guide to understanding reality, but in any case your claims of making philsophic points fall flat as well.

You'd be well advised to re-read your own thread, both volumes, all over again, every post of it, carefully and with an open mind. The way to rationality and and a sane worldview is wide open, right in front of you. But I doubt very much that you will walk it, because the fact is you're not free, at all, you who keep thumping your chest repeatedly with these declarations of being free.

Grow up, heydarian. You're not a child of five, to believe these absurd asinine fairy tales.

 

[heydarian saeed]

So why is it that you never dare answer mine....

Hello
I have already answered your repeated question in this thread. Please search. You are not careful enough.
Both Mary and Jesus were servants of God. Like all humans. All prophets are human like others. The creation of Jesus was the same as the creation of Adam and other prophets. (According to the process of abiogenesis) The difference between the creation of Jesus is that; It is a divine miracle. God has sent miracles either at the request of prophets or to show His supernatural power and knowledge. This is one of God's special plans. It is not related to humans. Are you God??!!

 

[steenkh]

Hello
I have already answered your repeated question in this thread. Please search. You are not careful enough.

No, you never answer questions but only serve more religious propaganda. The rest of your post with nonsense about miracles, is more of the same.

 

[Chanakya]

*facepalm*

So now the "prophets" are the product of abiogenesis. This is comedy gold. The gift that keeps giving. They should make a Monty Python type movie with these gems incorporated in the dialog.

 

[JayUtah]

I have already answered your repeated question in this thread.

You haven't addressed any of my rebuttals to your claims.

I am a scientist by profession. I have taught science in college. I have also studied the philosophy of science and have included that in my teaching experience. Even though I am an atheist, I learn about the dominant religions where I live, if possible from the clergy of those religions. When I lived in the Middle East, I read the Qur'an and learned about Islam.

Listening to you preach, you would think I'd be the one you would be most interested in talking to. Yet you seem to pick only the easiest challenges to address, and then only with arrogant bluster. You said you were not afraid, but you seem to be very afraid of people who clearly know more than you about the subjects you preach about.

 

[Crossbow]

Hello
I have already answered your repeated question in this thread. Please search. You are not careful enough.
Both Mary and Jesus were servants of God. Like all humans. All prophets are human like others. The creation of Jesus was the same as the creation of Adam and other prophets. (According to the process of abiogenesis) The difference between the creation of Jesus is that; It is a divine miracle. God has sent miracles either at the request of prophets or to show His supernatural power and knowledge. This is one of God's special plans. It is not related to humans. Are you God??!!

OK, just to recap a couple of points that I noticed in this remarkable posting ...

According to your fine logic, this god of yours created Adam, Jesus and Prophets via abiogenesis.

Also, according to your fine logic, this god of your will perform miracles if a Prophet requests that your god to perform a miracle and/or if your god wants to demonstrate his powers.

So I just have to ask:

'heydarian saeed' do you have any idea of just how totally absurd your logic is?

 

[heydarian saeed]

No. You specifically said you weren't going to answer. You are dishonest.



No. The problem is not that your critics are biased. And you are most certainly not unbiased. You are an ardent Muslim preaching your beliefs. The problem is that you pretend to know about science and philosophy, and then claim that either of these disciplines can prove your religion. But those who are more informed than you about these topics are exposing your ignorance. You seem to have no response to that beyond calling your critics names.



I wrote a lengthy post on the subject, which you have ignored. Here is the link to it so that you can repent from your dereliction.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13958018#post13958018

Hello
Yes.
All questions have been answered. Your problem is prejudice. Because of this prejudice, you never see the truth. And you are used to denying the truth. Your judgment is not important to us. Come whenever you understand the truth and speak rationally. I have no advice for you.

 

[JayUtah]

All questions have been answered.

Then please identify the post where you addressed what I wrote here.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13958018#post13958018

 

[heydarian saeed]

No, you never answer questions but only serve more religious propaganda. The rest of your post with nonsense about miracles, is more of the same.

Hello
I'm sorry
Your approach is biased. and denial of the truth. I have no advice for you. Unfortunately, your logic only revolves around you. You don't see others and other people's attitude at all. Your wrong procedure does not matter to us.
You have trouble even saying "hello". Is the word "Hello" not defined in your culture? We even say hello to our enemies.
I am really sorry for you.
This is my word to all of you.
Hello

 

[JayUtah]

I wrote :--

Yet you seem to pick only the easiest challenges to address, and then only with arrogant bluster. You said you were not afraid, but you seem to be very afraid of people who clearly know more than you about the subjects you preach about.

And then you wrote :--

Your problem is prejudice. Because of this prejudice, you never see the truth. And you are used to denying the truth. Your judgment is not important to us. Come whenever you understand the truth and speak rationally. I have no advice for you.

Your approach is biased. and denial of the truth. I have no advice for you. Unfortunately, your logic only revolves around you. You don't see others and other people's attitude at all. Your wrong procedure does not matter to us.
You have trouble even saying "hello". Is the word "Hello" not defined in your culture? We even say hello to our enemies.

You seem to be very nasty today. Please try harder to respond without insulting people.

 

[heydarian saeed]

This is the modern scientific logic of the Quran for the truth of "death".
When a person dies, all the information of a person's life is recorded. And it is sent to "Mobin book". The mode of transmission is through space strings and space wormholes. The place where human information is stored in the Mobin book is a special file named "Ajdath". The book of Mubin and Ajdath is mentioned many times in the Quran. But the old translation does not say this message. Because the translations are not up to date.
Nothing special happens in the grave. Only the human body turns into dust. and returns to the earth and nature. This is defined in the process of abiogenesis.
In the parallel world of the hereafter, the book of Mobin opens. And man is recreated through the information recorded in "Ajdath" according to "teleportation" technology. In the hereafter, the regenerated man will be asked. And according to what he answers, he will be rewarded or punished.
This process is for those who believe in God and the Hereafter.
Don't worry disbelievers. Because they do not believe in this matter. Therefore, they do not bring to ask questions. Rather, their recreated photons will go to hell. And they will stay in hell forever. This is the hell that the disbelievers have built with their own hands. Therefore, they enter it directly.
This is the scientific logic of the Quran. And it is absolutely true.
These are the words of God's claim in the Qur'an. And it is completely logical and scientific.

 

[Pixel42]

Your approach is biased. and denial of the truth.

The only one here who is biased and in denial of the truth is you.

 

[JayUtah]

I see you've quickly tried to change the subject rather than tell me where your answers to my previous questions were.

The mode of transmission is through space strings and space wormholes.

Okay, I understand string theory as it is taught in theoretical physics. Please identify where in the Qur'an the concept of particles as strings is mentioned, and please identify what parts of that discussion in the Qur'an can be specifically identified with unique concepts in modern string theory.

I'm also familiar with the concept of wormholes. As I mentioned, I was privileged to work directly with and for Prof. Stephen Hawking, whom you've mentioned in your various posts. Part of my work was helping to visualize what might happen in or near wormholes, should any be proven to exist. Please provide more detail on how you think a wormhole might have been what the Qur'an intended.

Because the translations are not up to date.

Which verses discuss string theory, and which translations are up to date according to you? Were these translations made before or after the formulation by science of string theory?

This is defined in the process of abiogenesis.

Abiogenesis discusses the emergence of life from substances and processes previously considered inorganic and inanimate. It doesn't discuss the decay of living matter into other, possibly inorganic, materials.

...according to "teleportation" technology.

What specific technology are you referring to? How does it achieve teleportation? Where is this mentioned in the Qur'an? Please give more detail.

Rather, their recreated photons will go to hell.

Do you believe that resurrected persons will be composed only of photons?

This is the scientific logic of the Quran.

You've alluded to a few scientific concepts, and you've told the resurrection and judgment story from the Qur'an. But you haven't shown how the Qur'an uniquely expresses those scientific concepts in a way that would prove the author of the Qur'an knew about those principles.

These are the words of God's claim in the Qur'an. And it is completely logical and scientific.

Again, from the scientific perspective it seems you've merely mentioned these concepts:

1. String theory
2. Wormholes
3. Abiogenesis
4. "Teleportation."

You haven't provided any scientific detail. You say "space strings" and "space wormholes" provide a means for communicating information. You need to give more scientific detail about how you think that happens, and how the Qur'an predicted that.

You mention abiogenesis in connection with the decay of dead matter. But death and decay is not part of any theory of abiogenesis.

You simply mention "teleportation" (in cautionary quotes) without giving any details about what science you think pertains to that, or where in the Qur'an it may be mentioned, predicted, or alluded to.

So from the perspective of syllogistic logic, you've simply begged all the questions. At best your logical argument is a giant non sequitur.