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The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 31

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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
While not 'expunged' as it remains part of the trial records, Nencini became legally invalid-worthless, of no import- by the Marasca annulment. In other words, no one gives a damn what Nencini says except the PGP.

Only in your mind.

What's only in mind? That Nencini remains a part of the trial records? That Nencini is legally invalid once annulled? Shall we do a look back at who...PGP or PIP... use Nencini as a source for their opinions on the pair's guilt and who does not?

Marasca-Bruno did a trash-a-thon of all the hard work Massei and Nencini put in. That is why their verdict is so scurrilous. It is up there with the corrupt Andreotti and Berlusconi acquittals.


Yes, they certainly did do a trash-a-thon on Massei and Nencini...and well deserved it was, too. Their verdict is only 'scurrilous' in the minds of those that cannot admit they were wrong.

Bongiorno of course, from Sicily, knows all about pulling strings, so to speak.


Please see my previous post asking why you feel the need to invent/make up/lie about things.

And I believe Bruno was once suspected of being part of the mob.

Just as you 'believed' that Raffaele met up with 'mafioso-types' in the DR, that Francesco and Raffaele are close relatives of Rocco Sollecito, and that Francesco attended Rocco's memorial service? Like that?
 
I don't think you can put the blame on Guede. As in any Prisoners Dilemma, each party will do whatever they perceive is optimal for him- or herself. Knox' and Sollecito's optimal game plan was to gang up on Guede and point the finger at him. Sollecito early on made a decision to distance himself from Knox by claiming she went out alone until 1:00am, telling police she had asked him to give her an alibi.



IMV the problem lies in charging three people with Aggravated Murder. It would have been better off to identify the killer as the Murderer with the other two as the accessories in crime.
I thought Amanda named Lumumba to turn attention away from Guede. Now she's trying to finger Guede. Make up your mind.
 
What Nencini said about C&V

Rather than expunging the C&V report, a report to the Hellmann trial which panned Stefanoni's original, first trial evidence....

Nencini accepts it, but attempts to explain it away. Nencini accepts C&V's conclusion that there are unknown contributors to Trace B, as it was called. Nencini argues, though, that extra contributors are not relevant, nor even evidence of contamination (!).

Nencini said:
Now, the Court has no reason to doubt the observations raised by Prof. Carla Vecchiotti concerning the technical report submitted by the Scientific Police, in the sense that the
interpretation given by the court-appointed experts Conti and Vecchiotti according to which the
presence of other contributors can be found on the trace extracted from the bra clasp is reliable,
but it does not seem capable of any significance in the context of this trial, in the sense of being
able to invalidate the results reached by the Scientific Police concerning the presence of Raffaele
Sollecito’s DNA on the hook of the bra worn by Meredith Kercher on the evening she was
killed. Indeed, Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni actually never asserted that trace 165 B revealed the
presence of only two contributors, but rather that “The analysis of trace B allowed the extrapolation
of a genetic profile coming from the mixture of biological substances belonging to at least two individuals
of which at least one male”.
So, rather than 'expunging' the C&V report, Nencini says he has no reason to doubt Vecchiotti's observations. What he's quibbling about is whether or not C&V said that Stefanoni asserted that there were only two contributors to Trace B. The quibble is that C&V criticised S. for not saying 'only' two contributors, Nencini said it was unclear if she'd used the word 'only'!

For Nencini, the sole evidentiary import of Trace B is that Sollecito was found as one of the contributors. It seems to escape him that if the extra ones were the result of contamination, then probably Sollecito's was too. With NO evidence regarding those extra contributors, he simply handwaves them away with galactically stupid reasoning.

Why does Nencini say that the extra ones cannot be the result of contamination? Read it and see if you agree:

Nencini italics in the original said:
Detailing the textual evidence of the [differences in] the two technical reports, as quoted above,
is not merely an irrelevant detail, but an obligation, given that to assert in an expert report that
the genetic profile is compatible with the hypothesis of a mixture of biological substances (presumably
exfoliation cells) belonging “only to Raffaele Sollecito and Meredith Susanna Cara Kercher
” is
absolutely not equivalent to the concept expressed in the sentence “The analysis of trace B allowed
the extrapolation of a genetic profile coming from the mixture of biological substances belonging to at
least two individuals of which at least one male
”.
Nencini continues by saying that extra contibutors are irrelevant, the issue is that Sollecito's is on Trace B.

Why? Because for Nencini is was 'perfectly normal' for innocent, extra contributors to be on that bra-clasp.

One cannot argue that him confusing Y-haplotypes with women, as being a typo. Read what he said.

Indeed, from the little it was possible to find out about her from the statements in the case file,
Meredith Kercher was a perfectly normal girl who had recently entered into a romantic
relationship with one of the young men who lived in the semi-underground floor of the cottage,
so it is reasonable to infer that she had a normal sexual life. This makes it reasonable to find it
plausible that the girl’s boyfriend could have also left his traces on the bra hook; it is also
reasonable to hold that some other one of her girlfriends could have at some point touched the bra hook and left her DNA.

That's a huge typo - in the range of it being a galactically stupid reason for denying that those extra contributors to Trace B could be contamination.

Nencini seems galactically uninterested in the identity of those extra contributors. Or the fact of them.

Those who make excuses for the convicting courts simply hand wave away things like that, not relying on evidence but on assumptions and guesses.

Yet, the other thing revealed when one actually reads the Nencini report, is that he says, "the Court has no reason to doubt the observations raised by Prof. Carla Vecchiotti concerning the technical report submitted by the Scientific Police"

He did not expunge it, he simply granted himself as the 'expert of the expert' like the eventual acquitting court said was part of the problem with this case when judges did that.
 
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Incorrect. Nencini is not expunged. It is the court together with Chieffi and Massei on which Maresca-Bruno hangs its verdict.


You still appear not to understand this correctly.

The Massei and Nencini verdicts & MRs (and the reasoning that those courts used in order to arrive at their verdicts) is now totally expunged.

However, the evidence, testimony and argument that took place in those courts still stands, and was indeed available to the Marasca SC panel. And of course the Marasca SC panel's entire remit & responsibility was to examine the reasoning/verdicts of the lower courts and decide whether those lower courts followed the law or not*.

When the Marasca SC panel quashed the convictions, by definition it simultaneously struck out the judgements of the related lower courts. The Massei and Nencini verdicts are no longer extant in a legal sense.


* For example, the Marasca SC panel judged - correctly - that the lower courts had erred grossly in law when they accorded weight and significance to Stefanoni's DNA "evidence". The SC ruled - correctly - that any fair court acting in accordance with the law should/would have entirely discounted Stefanoni's "evidence" as fundamentally unreliable and worthless.
 
The appellate court in Italy acts as a merits court when so directed by a Supreme Court. Otherwise, Appeal Courts are on points of law only.


1) You seem to believe that the Supreme Court is not an appellate court. It is.

2) Yes, I entirely understand the remit of appellate courts. It's you who still appears not to. For example, you still appear to find it difficult/impossible to understand that the SC was acting entirely within its remit when it judged that Stefanoni's DNA "evidence" was of such disgracefully low quality that, in Italian law, no court should have accepted it as probative evidence against Knox or Sollecito. And it made several other similar rulings relating directly to unlawful reasoning/decisions made by the lower courts - again, entirely within its remit.

And ultimately, the SC ruled - again, wholly within its remit - that there was effectively no probative "evidence" against Knox or Sollecito that fell within the Italian law's parameters, and that there was effectively no chance of that situation ever changing. Which is precisely why the SC a) simply threw out entirely the stinking convictions - which were unlawful under Italian law, and b) knew that no fair court should ever convict Knox or Sollecito (because there is no credible/reliable evidence of their involvement in the murder), so consequently knew it would be judicially improper to send the case back to be retried in a lower court. All entirely within its remit.
 
You have been watching too much crime drama.

1st COP: Hey, Luigi, we have a right one here!

2nd COP: What Guiseppe, another African migrant?

1st COP: Nah!

2nd COP: Romani?

1st COP: Nope!

2nd COP: I know, one of them thar 'drifters'...

1st COP: Nah, we got ourselves one of us!

2nd COP: Whoa.

1st COP: Not only that, its one of those bleeding wealthy middle classes -

2nd COP: Now you're talking.

1st COP: 'E's got a maid. Dad's a urologist?

2nd COP: A urologist! Bloody hell, you hit the jackpot there, Guiseppe! Bloody urologists!

1st COP: So, yeah, let's get out the nutcrackers and cattle prods.

2nd COP: I'll go get that ultra-bright spotlight.

1st COP: "Ve have ze Vays of making you talk!"

We-eeeell! Really! Forced confession. False memory. Ha-ha.


Oh good grief. This is toe-curling - not to mention wholly ignorant of the real, well-known and well-documented phenomenon of unlawful coerced confessions by police.

As I said before, perhaps you might bother to actually carry out some research into this area. As I said: it won't take you long to find copious examples, including more than one video from an interrogation room showing it taking place. If you learn about the reality here, it might help prevent you from making gruesomely embarrassing posts such as the one above.
 
The stab wounds as assessed by the pathologist were by two different sized knives.


(Or is the pathologist also part of the Mignini Conspiracy?)


Wrong yet again. The only reason that the whole "two knives" thing came about was that Sollecito's kitchen knife could not have inflicted one of the fatal wounds. And since the police & prosecution were convinced that Sollecito's kitchen knife was used in the murder*, their narrative of the crime therefore necessitated a second knife.

In fact, one knife could have caused both major wounds. And that's precisely what the pathologist ruled. It was only the fact that Sollecito's kitchen knife couldn't have caused both wounds that the "two knives" nonsense was created. Of course the truth is indeed that one knife caused both major wounds: it was a knife with a slimmer & thinner blade than Sollecito's kitchen knife, and it was wielded (and subsequently disposed of somewhere) by Rudy Guede.


* It wasn't.
 
Vecchiotti & Conti were in a conspiracy with Hellman. Hellman didn't need to appoint two further experts, as they are no higher rank than Stefanoni. They were brought in to trash her. Chieffi criticised Hellman for failing to explain why he appointed tow further experts. Hellman had the power to appoint experts of his own but he was supposed to proved a rationale for it.


LMAO!

So now you've got Hellmann (note the two "n"s in his name) conspiring with Conti and Vecchiotti along the following lines: Hellmann "wanted" Knox and Sollecito to be acquitted.... so he brought in Conti and Vecchiotti, with the understanding (cooked up between the three of them) that Conti/Vecchiotti were going to act against their professional integrity by "fixing it" with a trashing* of Stefanoni's forensics work?

Can you seriously not see just how ludicrous this nonsense is??


* You also appear to be in deep denial of the fact that Stefanoni's forensics work in the Knox/Sollecito case was indeed disgracefully incompetent and worthless - and that any expert giving a disinterested opinion on Stefanoni's work (including Conti and Vecchiotti) would have expressed just that opinion....
 
Oh good grief. This is toe-curling - not to mention wholly ignorant of the real, well-known and well-documented phenomenon of unlawful coerced confessions by police.

As I said before, perhaps you might bother to actually carry out some research into this area. As I said: it won't take you long to find copious examples, including more than one video from an interrogation room showing it taking place. If you learn about the reality here, it might help prevent you from making gruesomely embarrassing posts such as the one above.

I think I see the problem here: In order to learn the truth, one has to want to know the truth.
 
LMAO!

So now you've got Hellmann (note the two "n"s in his name) conspiring with Conti and Vecchiotti along the following lines: Hellmann "wanted" Knox and Sollecito to be acquitted.... so he brought in Conti and Vecchiotti, with the understanding (cooked up between the three of them) that Conti/Vecchiotti were going to act against their professional integrity by "fixing it" with a trashing* of Stefanoni's forensics work?

Can you seriously not see just how ludicrous this nonsense is??


* You also appear to be in deep denial of the fact that Stefanoni's forensics work in the Knox/Sollecito case was indeed disgracefully incompetent and worthless - and that any expert giving a disinterested opinion on Stefanoni's work (including Conti and Vecchiotti) would have expressed just that opinion....

Well, there's the problem.....
 
I don't think you can put the blame on Guede. As in any Prisoners Dilemma, each party will do whatever they perceive is optimal for him- or herself. Knox' and Sollecito's optimal game plan was to gang up on Guede and point the finger at him. Sollecito early on made a decision to distance himself from Knox by claiming she went out alone until 1:00am, telling police she had asked him to give her an alibi.

IMV the problem lies in charging three people with Aggravated Murder. It would have been better off to identify the killer as the Murderer with the other two as the accessories in crime.


You do realise that there is/was never any credible & reliable evidence pointing to Knox's or Sollecito's involvement in the murder, don't you? And that there was more than enough credible & reliable evidence to prove Guede's guilt? And that it was categorically feasible for one person to have committed the crime on their own (which is indeed what actually happened: Guede alone confronted, sexually assaulted and killed Kercher)?

And as you've been told several times now: you don't understand what the "Prisoner's Dilemma" flavour of game theory actually is (and what it is not). What you're describing above is categorically not an example of Prisoner's Dilemma - it's simply a regular example of people wanting to optimise his/her own outcome. Game theory is a whole lot more involved and complicated than that, and you clearly don't understand it.
 
Only in your mind.

Marasca-Bruno did a trash-a-thon of all the hard work Massei and Nencini put in. That is why their verdict is so scurrilous. It is up there with the corrupt Andreotti and Berlusconi acquittals.

Bongiorno of course, from Sicily, knows all about pulling strings, so to speak. And I believe Bruno was once suspected of being part of the mob.


You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Do you know why the Marasca SC panel did a "trash-a-thon" of "all the hard work" (LOL) that Massei and Nencini put in? Well, I'll tell you: it was because Massei and Nencini had demonstrably erred grossly in law in the ways in which they weighed the evidence and testimony in front of them, and because any competent lower court would/should have acquitted Knox and Sollecito.

If you start to understand that, it will most probably help considerably with your overall understanding of the Knox/Sollecito trial process (including an understanding of why neither Massei nor Nencini should have convicted Knox or Sollecito, and why the Marasca SC panel was entirely correct in totally quashing the convictions without remanding back to a lower court for retrial).
 
Incorrect. Nencini is not expunged. It is the court together with Chieffi and Massei on which Maresca-Bruno hangs its verdict.

The appellate court in Italy acts as a merits court when so directed by a Supreme Court. Otherwise, Appeal Courts are on points of law only.

1) You seem to believe that the Supreme Court is not an appellate court. It is.

2) Yes, I entirely understand the remit of appellate courts. It's you who still appears not to. For example, you still appear to find it difficult/impossible to understand that the SC was acting entirely within its remit when it judged that Stefanoni's DNA "evidence" was of such disgracefully low quality that, in Italian law, no court should have accepted it as probative evidence against Knox or Sollecito. And it made several other similar rulings relating directly to unlawful reasoning/decisions made by the lower courts - again, entirely within its remit.

And ultimately, the SC ruled - again, wholly within its remit - that there was effectively no probative "evidence" against Knox or Sollecito that fell within the Italian law's parameters, and that there was effectively no chance of that situation ever changing. Which is precisely why the SC a) simply threw out entirely the stinking convictions - which were unlawful under Italian law, and b) knew that no fair court should ever convict Knox or Sollecito (because there is no credible/reliable evidence of their involvement in the murder), so consequently knew it would be judicially improper to send the case back to be retried in a lower court. All entirely within its remit.

Vixen's statements are remarkable examples of either falsehoods resulting from bias or an inability to comprehend Italian law, even when explained on this site, or both.

The Nencini appeal court judgment was the judgment directly under review by the Marasca CSC panel. The Marasca CSC panel does mention the Chieffi CSC panel judgment in relation to the Nencini appeal court judgment. It criticizes the Chieffi CSC panel MR for straying into the merits, while one of its many criticisms of the Nencini MR is that the Nencini court did not use its lawful authority to evaluate the evidence independently of the perceived Chieffi MR directions.

The Nencini judgment was annulled without referral to a lower court by the Marasca CSC panel, under Italian law CPP Article 620, paragraph 1, subparagraph L. "Annulled" (quashed, invalidated) is not the same as "expunged" (removed from the record).

An Italian court of appeal trial has the same provisions as a first-instance trial, as applicable (CPP Article 598). The judge of the court of appeal may order the renewal of the trial evidentiary hearing if he deems it necessary, with or without the request of a party to the trial (CPP Article 603).

According to CPP Article 627, in the case of an annulment with referral, the referral court of appeal judge has the same authorities or powers as those of the judge whose judgment was annulled by the CSC, and the referral judge shall order the renewal of the trial evidentiary hearing, at the request of the parties, for the gathering of evidence that is relevant for the decision. The referral judge conforms to those judgments of law decided upon by the CSC in its referring judgment.

See: https://canestrinilex.com/assets/Up...-Code-of-Criminal-Procedure-canestriniLex.pdf
 
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Oh good grief. This is toe-curling - not to mention wholly ignorant of the real, well-known and well-documented phenomenon of unlawful coerced confessions by police.

As I said before, perhaps you might bother to actually carry out some research into this area. As I said: it won't take you long to find copious examples, including more than one video from an interrogation room showing it taking place. If you learn about the reality here, it might help prevent you from making gruesomely embarrassing posts such as the one above.

For those who don't believe in, or don't understand what a coercive interrogation can do, I point them to the Riley Fox murder. An innocent, despondent father coerced into confessing to her murder despite overwhelming evidence - ignored by the police - that someone else committed the murder. Tunnel vision on steroids. By comparison, coercing Amanda was like shooting fish in a barrel.
 
Did Judge Nencini expunge the Conti&Vecchiotti report? Did Judge Nencini in 2014 utter a typo when he implied that women could have Y-haplotypes?

From his motivations report: First about the Conti&Vecchiotti report:

Nencini said:
the Court has no reason to doubt the observations raised by Prof. Carla Vecchiotti concerning the technical report submitted by the Scientific Police, in the sense that the
interpretation given by the court-appointed experts Conti and Vecchiotti according to which the
presence of other contributors can be found on the trace extracted from the bra clasp is reliable

Then about his insistence that the extra contributors to Trace B could be from females, even though they were Y-haplotypes:

Nencici said:
it is reasonable to infer that she had a normal sexual life. This makes it reasonable to find it
plausible that the girl’s boyfriend could have also left his traces on the bra hook; it is also reasonable to hold that some other one of her girlfriends could have at some point touched the bra hook and left her DNA.

Typo?
 
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Staging the body was probably impromptu rather than premeditated, as was the burglary scene. It was a case of 'What have we done?!' and an attempt to cover up.


They had all night.

The only reason Knox mentioned the 'prank' (ha ha) was because her classmate from UW contacted Perugia Police to inform them of her distressing deed. It was bullying; it was designed to frighten the classmate. She put a ski mask and ended up having to apologise for the distress she caused.

Once again, you aren't answering the question. I asked why they would stage a sexual assault when a sexual assault had already happened and you say "it was probably impromptu", as if that was an answer.

Indulge me for a moment as I propose an appropriate answer for you....

"yeah, your right. It doesn't really make any sense to think they staged the body when she had already been sexually assaulted."

You see how easy that is? Next we can work on admitting it makes no sense to stage a burglary and then not take anything, or to stage a break-in when you already know the front door latch is broken.
 
....

The Nencini judgment was annulled without referral to a lower court by the Marasca CSC panel, under Italian law CPP Article 620, paragraph 1, subparagraph L. "Annulled" (quashed, invalidated) is not the same as "expunged" (removed from the record).

....

Vixen has claimed that the Marasca CSC panel annulment of the Nencini appeal court judgment without referral was somehow unusual, unethical, or unlawful.

I previously provided some statistics taken from a table for the years 2011 - 2021 from the CSC website showing that annulments without referral were almost as common as annulments with referral. In my post, I gave the annulment with and without referral for the years 2013 (Chieffi judgment year) and 2015 (Marasca judgment year), and the maximum and minimums for the 11-year period.

Here, to provide readers with a more concise general summary of the CSC table showing, for criminal cases, the yearly number of annulments with and without referral, I present the totals for the 11-year period, the arithmetic average (mean), and the maximum and minimum.

Annulments with referral, 2011 - 2021:

Total 56,494

Mean 5136

Max 6582

Min 3821


Annulments without referral, 2011 - 2021:

Total 51,369

Mean 4670

Max 7322

Min 2614

Source: https://www.cortedicassazione.it/ca...cms/documents/AG2022_ANNUARIO_penale_2021.pdf

Table 5.4
 
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