Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VIII

[mikegriffith1]

Speaking of Oliver Stone, he appears to have gotten a second wind in regards to the JFK Case. In the past 10 months, he has given several interviews where he regurgitates the same debunked nonsense he put forth in both his 1991 film and his subsequent speaking tour. Stone also remains hypersensitive to any critiques of his flawed research and/or conclusions.

Actually, Stone's latest JFK documentary, JFK Revisited, is superb, virtually inerrant, and presents some of the key evidence that researchers have developed, especially in light of ARRB disclosures. It's available on Amazon Prime.

I agree that his 1991 movie JFK was badly flawed. It got many things right, but it also got many things wrong, and some of the wrong things were wild and reckless, such as the claim that Edward Lansdale was the mastermind behind the assassination. Stone was badly deceived by L. Fletcher Prouty, a former military intelligence officer who also happened to be a crackpot and a publicity seeker, and who associated with some shady groups, such as Liberty Lobby and Scientology.

 

[Axxman300]

The only things Stone's JFK got right was that Kennedy was indeed shot, the CIA was working with Cuban Exiles to overthrow Castro, Guy Banister helped the CIA, Jim Garrison lost a lot of friends chasing his delusions of conspiracy, and the Mafia has a presence in New Orleans.

Other than that, the movie is JFK-CT fan fiction with a great soundtrack.

 

[pgwenthold]

Actually, Stone's latest JFK documentary, JFK Revisited, is superb, virtually inerrant, and presents some of the key evidence that researchers have developed, especially in light of ARRB disclosures. It's available on Amazon Prime..

So Stone now admits that LHO did it alone?

 

[smartcooky]

So Stone now admits that LHO did it alone?

Nope. I've seen Stone's latest effort (yes, I was willing to take one for the team and risk brain damage watching this piece of inane crap).

It is one of those "its so old, its new" type documentaries (and even calling it a documentary is an insult to the form). It is nothing more than a poorly executed rehash of the BS that conspiratards call "evidence". Nothing new to see here, just the same old, same old.

Don't waste your time!

 

[bknight]

Nope. I've seen Stone's latest effort (yes, I was willing to take one for the team and risk brain damage watching this piece of inane crap).

It is one of those "its so old, its new" type documentaries (and even calling it a documentary is an insult to the form). It is nothing more than a poorly executed rehash of the BS that conspiratards call "evidence". Nothing new to see here, just the same old, same old.

Don't waste your time!

Thanks for the hit, I'll pass on this.

 

[mikegriffith1]

This is a curious thread. The last official federal investigation into the JFK assassination, the one conducted from 1977-1979 by the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA), concluded that JFK was probably killed by a conspiracy, that more than one gunman fired at Kennedy, that Ruby's shooting of Oswald resembled a typical Mafia silencing action, that Ruby had extensive Mafia ties, that Ruby had help getting into the police HQ basement to shoot Oswald, that Ruby's polygraph suggests he was lying when he denied being part of a conspiracy, that there was credible evidence linking Oswald to militant anti-communists with intelligence connections, that someone was impersonating Oswald in Mexico City, and that the Warren Commission failed to pursue valid leads that pointed to conspiracy.

Then, in the 1990s, the Assassination Records Review Board uncovered massive, indisputable evidence that pointed to conspiracy, such as evidence that the CIA lied to Warren Commission and the HSCA, that the chief autopsy doctor destroyed key evidence, that the witnesses at the autopsy saw the same large right-rear head wound on JFK that most of the Dallas witnesses reported seeing, that the brain that Dr. Finck examined two weeks after the autopsy could not have been JFK's brain, that the mortician who reassembled JFK's skull after the autopsy saw a small wound in his right temple, that the autopsy photos at the National Archives are not the autopsy photos that autopsy photographer James Stringer took and that Navy photo technician Saundra Spencer developed, that FBI Special Agents O'Neill and Sibert insisted that the extant autopsy photos of the back of the head do not show how the head looked at the autopsy, and on and on and on we could go.

If any version of the JFK assassination deserves to be viewed with great skepticism, it is the Warren Commission's mythical lone-gunman theory.

 

[smartcooky]

This is a curious thread. The last official federal investigation into the JFK assassination, the one conducted from 1977-1979 by the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA), concluded that JFK was probably killed by a conspiracy, that more than one gunman fired at Kennedy, that Ruby's shooting of Oswald resembled a typical Mafia silencing action, that Ruby had extensive Mafia ties, that Ruby had help getting into the police HQ basement to shoot Oswald, that Ruby's polygraph suggests he was lying when he denied being part of a conspiracy..., that there was credible evidence linking Oswald to militant anti-communists with intelligence connections, that someone was impersonating Oswald in Mexico City, and that the Warren Commission failed to pursue valid leads that pointed to conspiracy.

They were wrong

Then, in the 1990s, the Assassination Records Review Board uncovered massive, indisputable evidence that pointed to conspiracy, such as evidence that the CIA lied to Warren Commission and the HSCA, that the chief autopsy doctor destroyed key evidence, that the witnesses at the autopsy saw the same large right-rear head wound on JFK that most of the Dallas witnesses reported seeing, that the brain that Dr. Finck examined two weeks after the autopsy could not have been JFK's brain, that the mortician who reassembled JFK's skull after the autopsy saw a small wound in his right temple, that the autopsy photos at the National Archives are not the autopsy photos that autopsy photographer James Stringer took and that Navy photo technician Saundra Spencer developed, that FBI Special Agents O'Neill and Sibert insisted that the extant autopsy photos of the back of the head do not show how the head looked at the autopsy, and on and on and on we could go.

The sources you are getting this crap from are lying.

If any version of the JFK assassination deserves to be viewed with great skepticism, it is the Warren Commission's mythical lone-gunman theory.

This is the only official investigation that got it right.

JFK was shot by one gunman, Lee Harvey Oswald, who acted alone.

Whether there was a conspiracy OUTSIDE of Dealey Plaza may be an open question, but very, very unlikely. However, there was no conspiracy INSIDE Dealey Plaza - there was no second shooter on the grassy knoll, or on another floor of the Texas School Book Depository, or on the roof of the Dal-Tex Building, or on an upper floor of the Dallas County Records Building, or hiding inside a drain below the kerb on the northern side of Elm St, or anywhere else in Dealey Plaza. The "second shooter" claim has been thoroughly, repeatedly, and conclusively debunked over, and over, and over again.

 

[bknight]

This is a curious thread. The last official federal investigation into the JFK assassination, the one conducted from 1977-1979 by the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA), concluded that JFK was probably killed by a conspiracy, that more than one gunman fired at Kennedy, that Ruby's shooting of Oswald resembled a typical Mafia silencing action, that Ruby had extensive Mafia ties, that Ruby had help getting into the police HQ basement to shoot Oswald, that Ruby's polygraph suggests he was lying when he denied being part of a conspiracy, that there was credible evidence linking Oswald to militant anti-communists with intelligence connections, that someone was impersonating Oswald in Mexico City, and that the Warren Commission failed to pursue valid leads that pointed to conspiracy.

Then, in the 1990s, the Assassination Records Review Board uncovered massive, indisputable evidence that pointed to conspiracy, such as evidence that the CIA lied to Warren Commission and the HSCA, that the chief autopsy doctor destroyed key evidence, that the witnesses at the autopsy saw the same large right-rear head wound on JFK that most of the Dallas witnesses reported seeing, that the brain that Dr. Finck examined two weeks after the autopsy could not have been JFK's brain, that the mortician who reassembled JFK's skull after the autopsy saw a small wound in his right temple, that the autopsy photos at the National Archives are not the autopsy photos that autopsy photographer James Stringer took and that Navy photo technician Saundra Spencer developed, that FBI Special Agents O'Neill and Sibert insisted that the extant autopsy photos of the back of the head do not show how the head looked at the autopsy, and on and on and on we could go.

If any version of the JFK assassination deserves to be viewed with great skepticism, it is the Warren Commission's mythical lone-gunman theory.

Your moniker should read Noncritical Thinker instead of Critical Thinker. You havenot displayed one original thought just parroting comments by others. Those thoughts, as smartcooky, have identified have been debunked for 60 years.

 

[Allen773]

This is a curious thread. The last official federal investigation into the JFK assassination, the one conducted from 1977-1979 by the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA), concluded that JFK was probably killed by a conspiracy, that more than one gunman fired at Kennedy, that Ruby's shooting of Oswald resembled a typical Mafia silencing action, that Ruby had extensive Mafia ties, that Ruby had help getting into the police HQ basement to shoot Oswald, that Ruby's polygraph suggests he was lying when he denied being part of a conspiracy, that there was credible evidence linking Oswald to militant anti-communists with intelligence connections, that someone was impersonating Oswald in Mexico City, and that the Warren Commission failed to pursue valid leads that pointed to conspiracy.

Then, in the 1990s, the Assassination Records Review Board uncovered massive, indisputable evidence that pointed to conspiracy, such as evidence that the CIA lied to Warren Commission and the HSCA, that the chief autopsy doctor destroyed key evidence, that the witnesses at the autopsy saw the same large right-rear head wound on JFK that most of the Dallas witnesses reported seeing, that the brain that Dr. Finck examined two weeks after the autopsy could not have been JFK's brain, that the mortician who reassembled JFK's skull after the autopsy saw a small wound in his right temple, that the autopsy photos at the National Archives are not the autopsy photos that autopsy photographer James Stringer took and that Navy photo technician Saundra Spencer developed, that FBI Special Agents O'Neill and Sibert insisted that the extant autopsy photos of the back of the head do not show how the head looked at the autopsy, and on and on and on we could go.

If any version of the JFK assassination deserves to be viewed with great skepticism, it is the Warren Commission's mythical lone-gunman theory.

I have to hand it to you for getting so much wrong in one post.

 

[Axxman300]

This is a curious thread. The last official federal investigation into the JFK assassination, the one conducted from 1977-1979 by the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA), concluded that JFK was probably killed by a conspiracy

And yet they couldn't name a suspect. With all of those witnesses, we're left with a government ghost story at best.

that more than one gunman fired at Kennedy

Which was based on a presumed - AUDIO - recording of the shots, which later turned out to be from the Trademart, and was a recording of radio cross-talk. In short, they cobbled findings from an unrelated recording.

And newer acoustic have proven their findings to be painfully wrong.

that Ruby's shooting of Oswald resembled a typical Mafia silencing action,

Really? Did Ruby kiss Oswald first? How does Oswald's shooting differ from any other spur-of-the-moment shooting with a handgun?

that Ruby had extensive Mafia ties

And by ties this meant he borrowed money from time-to-time, and gave them access to his club...because he borrowed money from time-to-time...and in his line of work one never knows when they might need specialized help.

He was not a made-man. He was not some kind of Mafia insider. He ran a strip club with a full bar. In every big city, if you had this kind of business in 1963 you usually ended up paying protection money.

that Ruby had help getting into the police HQ basement to shoot Oswald,

This is a lie. The garage had no gate, no security, and he was frequently at DPD HQ, because he was a gadfly. See, while he had mob connections, he also had Dallas PD connections too. By this logic, Ruby was a secret Dallas police officer.

Ruby walked through a wide open garage entrance. Define "help".

that Ruby's polygraph suggests he was lying when he denied being part of a conspiracy,

Polygraphs are inadmissible in a court of law. Also, Ruby was not mentally well.

that there was credible evidence linking Oswald to militant anti-communists with intelligence connections,

This is a lie.

Oswald got around. But he also hung out with pro-Castro types. Plus the whole defecting to Russia thing.

that someone was impersonating Oswald in Mexico City,

Another lie. The Cubans and Russians confirmed he was in Mexico City. This lie is so old that only stupid people believe it any more.

and that the Warren Commission failed to pursue valid leads that pointed to conspiracy.

Based on whose opinion? Mark Lane?

Then, in the 1990s, the Assassination Records Review Board uncovered massive, indisputable evidence that pointed to conspiracy,

No, they didn't, and that wasn't their job.

such as evidence that the CIA lied to Warren Commission and the HSCA,

*gasp* What? No, really? The CIA lied about ongoing classified operations against Cuba? Shocking.

Guess who told them to...RFK. (things you'd learn if you read hardback history books).

that the chief autopsy doctor destroyed key evidence,

No, he just burned his autopsy notes. He burned them because he thought he wouldn't need them because he had ordered 35mm color photographs to be taken of the autopsy - which they were. The KENNEDY FAMILY (Jackie and RFK) had the photos sealed, and access to them restricted. Dr. Humes was then unable to refer back to those photos as he was locked out.

See how the facts seem less sexy than conspiracy?

that the witnesses at the autopsy saw the same large right-rear head wound on JFK that most of the Dallas witnesses reported seeing,

This is a huge lie. Let me clue you in: THE ASSASSINATION WAS ON FILM FROM THREE DIFFERENT ANGLES. Only two bullets struck JFK. Both were from behind (as per the HSCA btw).

that the brain that Dr. Finck examined two weeks after the autopsy could not have been JFK's brain,

This hilarious for a number of reasons. Mostly because it's a dumb fairytale.

that the mortician who reassembled JFK's skull after the autopsy saw a small wound in his right temple,

And yet it wasn't, unless Kennedy had been shot earlier in the day, or maybe at Parkland. I can say this because - again - the assassination is on film.

that the autopsy photos at the National Archives are not the autopsy photos that autopsy photographer James Stringer took and that Navy photo technician Saundra Spencer developed, that FBI Special Agents O'Neill and Sibert insisted that the extant autopsy photos of the back of the head do not show how the head looked at the autopsy, and on and on and on we could go.

Here's why this one is pure BS.

If Dr. Hume couldn't access the photographs then Joe Blow FBI agent, and Joe Nobody Navy Corpsman sure as hell never had access to these photos. Humes was able to review the pictures along with other doctors back in the early 1980s, and he said they were the same ones taken during the autopsy.

Another fun fact: While the photos are at the National Archives, their negatives are in the possession of the Kennedy Family lawyers. So the idea that photos are missing is a lie (the National Archives inventories them), and even if one vanishes, the negatives are still around.

I should explain that in 1963, pictures were made by using cameras with film, and that those exposures become negatives which can be used to print more photos.

If any version of the JFK assassination deserves to be viewed with great skepticism, it is the Warren Commission's mythical lone-gunman theory.

Gosh, please explain in detail, why this is true. I ask because the new documents show that the Warren Commission, the Secret Service, the FBI, and the CIA ALL WANTED OSWALD TO BE PART OF A CONSPIRACY. They couldn't do it.

The HSCA was a fishing expedition lead by people who NEEDED a conspiracy. Robert Blakey, the Chief Counsel for the HSCA was a hardcore CTist who believed the Mafia killed JFK. This colored much of what the committee did in avenues of investigation. There was zero impartiality with the HSCA. The real crime was that the MLK assassination deserved it's own closer look, but unfortunately it was stuck in the back of the HSCA's bus.

Bottom Line: The HSCA concluded Oswald shot JFK twice. They think there was a second gunman based on really bad evidence, but they can't name this gunman, nor can they say who he and Oswald were connected to, if anyone.

In short, just like the January 6th Committee, the HSCA was a worthless publicity stunt.

 

[kookbreaker]

The HCSA actually did answer quite a few conspiracy questions that had cropped up since the Warren Commission, and they answered a lot of questions about the MLK assassination. Had the dictabelt not popped up at the 11th hour and given rushed treatment they would likely have announced they could find no conspiracy evidence for JFK.

 

[sackett]

Yo, mikegriffith1! Can you tell me why, after all this time and hot air, anybody should give a good goddamn who shot Kennedy?

 

[Axxman300]

The HCSA actually did answer quite a few conspiracy questions that had cropped up since the Warren Commission, and they answered a lot of questions about the MLK assassination. Had the dictabelt not popped up at the 11th hour and given rushed treatment they would likely have announced they could find no conspiracy evidence for JFK.

If you look at the National Archives JFK Assassination records release the first thing that stands out is the HSCA pulled CIA records on Cuba going back to the 1950s. This wasn't a pure fact-finding mission, it was a political fishing expedition. I could understand documents from 1959 through 1963, but not the older ones. And it is clear from the distribution stamps that certain parties were more interested in our anti-Castro operations than they were the murder of JFK.

As far as the second gunman nonsense goes, there were over a dozen people within 75 feet of the picket fence. Not one of them, including Abraham Zapruder, saw nor heard gunfire from there. And none of them saw a gunman.

Finally, we are STILL waiting for the rest of the assassination documents.

 

[MicahJava]

The HCSA actually did answer quite a few conspiracy questions that had cropped up since the Warren Commission, and they answered a lot of questions about the MLK assassination. Had the dictabelt not popped up at the 11th hour and given rushed treatment they would likely have announced they could find no conspiracy evidence for JFK.

If you consider the HSCA an example of a good murder investigation, then I really hope that every defense attorney's opening statement in every court case includes talking about the HSCA as an example of the government being extremely stupid on things such as this. And this is a PRESIDENT'S murder. I mean, what do you call not even bothering to try gathering every single possible relevant witness and mapping a chain of custody for all of the physical evidence? Or not showing the photographs to the witnesses? Or not asking witnesses basic questions or more outside experts about things like the photos of the skull cavity, the EOP wound or other anatomical arguments? Or not calling for an exhumation at Arlington? Is this the same attention to detail the modern FBI gives to the average "non-urban" or "non-organized-crime-related" missing person's case?

 

[smartcooky]

If you consider the HSCA an example of a good murder investigation, then I really hope that every defense attorney's opening statement in every court case includes talking about the HSCA as an example of the government being extremely stupid on things such as this. And this is a PRESIDENT'S murder. I mean, what do you call not even bothering to try gathering every single possible relevant witness and mapping a chain of custody for all of the physical evidence? Or not showing the photographs to the witnesses? Or not asking witnesses basic questions or more outside experts about things like the photos of the skull cavity, the EOP wound or other anatomical arguments? Or not calling for an exhumation at Arlington? Is this the same attention to detail the modern FBI gives to the average "non-urban" or "non-organized-crime-related" missing person's case?

What a pathetic load of horse-cock!

 

[Axxman300]

If you consider the HSCA an example of a good murder investigation, then I really hope that every defense attorney's opening statement in every court case includes talking about the HSCA as an example of the government being extremely stupid on things such as this.

The HSCA was not a murder investigation, it was an investigation into allegations of conspiracy or conspiracies.

Also, they caught the guy who killed JFK. You might have heard of him.

And this is a PRESIDENT'S murder. I mean, what do you call not even bothering to try gathering every single possible relevant witness

That was done in 1963 and 1964.

and mapping a chain of custody for all of the physical evidence?

Most of the physical evidence is in either the National Archives or the 6th Floor Museum in Dallas. The chain of evidence is only in question by delusional people.

Or not showing the photographs to the witnesses?

That is called, "Leading the Witness", and immediately makes their testimony invalid in every court of law in the US. Thanks for playing.

Or not asking witnesses basic questions

All the relevant questions were asked. They didn't need to drag it out because people like you didn't like the answers.

or more outside experts about things like the photos of the skull cavity, the EOP wound or other anatomical arguments?

More than they did? You are not looking for the truth, you are looking for validation of your twisted reality.

Or not calling for an exhumation at Arlington?

First off, this would have been cruel. And impossible. The Kennedy family would have killed the HSCA in five minutes.

Second, they have the x-rays and the photographs making this ghoulish exercise unnecessary.

Is this the same attention to detail the modern FBI gives to the average "non-urban" or "non-organized-crime-related" missing person's case?

What the hell does that even mean?

The FBI and Secret Service used all of the technology available to them in 1963/1964 to investigate the assassination. To say otherwise is a lie. Technology wasn't much more advanced in 1977. And the HSCA was not an FBI-run operation.

You really need to take a civics class and a few history classes at the local junior college before you post here.

 

[bknight]

What a pathetic load of horse-cock!

I've seen this reffered to another animal and different stuff.

 

[smartcooky]

The HSCA was not a murder investigation, it was an investigation into allegations of conspiracy or conspiracies.

Also, they caught the guy who killed JFK. You might have heard of him.

That was done in 1963 and 1964.

Most of the physical evidence is in either the National Archives or the 6th Floor Museum in Dallas. The chain of evidence is only in question by delusional people.

That is called, "Leading the Witness", and immediately makes their testimony invalid in every court of law in the US. Thanks for playing.

All the relevant questions were asked. They didn't need to drag it out because people like you didn't like the answers.

More than they did? You are not looking for the truth, you are looking for validation of your twisted reality.

First off, this would have been cruel. And impossible. The Kennedy family would have killed the HSCA in five minutes.

Second, they have the x-rays and the photographs making this ghoulish exercise unnecessary.

What the hell does that even mean?

The FBI and Secret Service used all of the technology available to them in 1963/1964 to investigate the assassination. To say otherwise is a lie. Technology wasn't much more advanced in 1977. And the HSCA was not an FBI-run operation.

You really need to take a civics class and a few history classes at the local junior college before you post here.

Quite excellent Axxman.

Your post perfectly explains what I meant when I described the post you are relying to as "a pathetic load of horse-cock!"

 

[catsmate]

Actually, Stone's latest JFK documentary, JFK Revisited, is

Packed with generally irrelevant trivia, most of which simply isn't new, lots of factually inaccurate trivia and establishes nothing new.Curiously Stone doesn't cover Ruby at all.
Appeals to the QNuts.

 

[pgwenthold]

This is a curious thread. The last official federal investigation into the JFK assassination, the one conducted from 1977-1979 by the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA), concluded that JFK was probably killed by a conspiracy, that more than one gunman fired at Kennedy,

On what basis did they make this conclusion? Is that still a valid conclusion?

(HINT: a) they based it on the "dictabelt" evidence; in fact, all the way up until that point, they were ready to confirm the WC conclusion. However, the dictabelt evidence was new, and they didn't have an explanation. So they said, we can't explain it, and so it sounds like there was a second shooter. b) not at all. The dictabelt crap is nonsense)

You are mistaken if you think the people in this thread merely accept the government claims unwittingly. No one believes JHO acted alone merely because the Warren Report said he did.