• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Merged Strict biological definitions of male/female

I could never 'pay the membership dues' by suckling young (as I'm male), but I'm still in the 'mammal club'. 'Of the class that ...' is the point you've misinterpreted from the outset.

:rolleyes: Still haven't the foggiest idea what you're getting. And you clearly don't either, or you're incapable of saying what you mean.

If you're not going to say or even make an effort to address my answers then I'll put you on my ignore list. A waste of time otherwise.
 
: rolleyes : Haven't the foggiest idea what you're getting at; doubt you do either ...
What he's getting at seems pretty clear to me.

Though you might ask yourself whether you can be a member of a political party if you can't pay the membership dues ...
Around here, political parties don't have membership dues. Being a member is trivial: You just say you're a member.
 
Where did Hilton invoke a spectrum?

Christ in a sidecar.

It's not a case of her "invoking" that. I'm SAYING that that is what her definition boils down into. She is specifying 3 mutually exclusive criteria for category membership. Ergo, a polythetic category, ergo a spectrum.
 
You appear to trust that native English speakers would agree to the parenthetical addition, but you don't get to invoke any lexicographers in support of that premise.

Clearly, they haven't caught up with Hilton's "new improved!" Trinity (AKA, spectrumist definition) ... :rolleyes:

I disagree.

:rolleyes: I await, with bated breath, your detailed and well-evidenced rebuttal ...

You seem to "think" that ipse dixits qualify as arguments. Skeptics? What a joke ...
 
But that is not saying that each sex is a spectrum; that is Hilton's argument, not mine.

*disagreeing noises*

She is specifying 3 mutually exclusive criteria for category membership.

*more disagreeing noises*

I await, with bated breath, your detailed and well-evidenced rebuttal...
Okay, let's count the criteria for membership in the class male:

1) Individuals that have developed anatomies for producing small...gametes

That's it. Just the one. Shall we do female next?
 
Last edited:
Meant to address this earlier, but it isn't exactly a core issue. Anyhow, my problem with this graph is that (even in context) I cannot tell what the x-axis is supposed to represent. Total number of characteristically female traits?
 
Meant to address this earlier, but it isn't exactly a core issue. Anyhow, my problem with this graph is that (even in context) I cannot tell what the x-axis is supposed to represent. Total number of characteristically female traits?

No, it's a pair of tits. He's just been having a laugh all along ... this much has become clear.
 
Meant to address this earlier, but it isn't exactly a core issue. Anyhow, my problem with this graph is that (even in context) I cannot tell what the x-axis is supposed to represent. Total number of characteristically female traits?

Ratio of male to female sex essences?
 
Meant to address this earlier, but it isn't exactly a core issue. Anyhow, my problem with this graph is that (even in context) I cannot tell what the x-axis is supposed to represent. Total number of characteristically female traits?

Sexes - plural, a multitude of them. Novella's "ideas" are rather half-baked at best - being charitable, but one can sort of see the method in his madness:

First we need to consider all the traits relevant to sex that vary along this bimodal distribution. The language and concepts for these traits have been evolving too, but here is a current generally accepted scheme for organizing these traits:

  1. Genetic sex
  2. Morphological sex, which includes reproductive organs, external genitalia, gametes and secondary morphological sexual characteristics (sometimes these and genetic sex are referred to collectively as biological sex, but this is problematic for reasons I will go over)
  3. Sexual orientation (sexual attraction)
  4. Gender identity (how one understands and feels about their own gender)
  5. Gender expression (how one expresses their gender to the world)

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-science-of-biological-sex/

The most I can get out of that dog's breakfast is that each of those 5 "factors" constitutes a dial, each of which has a number of positions, and each combination of which constitutes a separate sex on that discrete spectrum.

Haven't the foggiest idea how to integrate gender identity into the mix since it seems entirely subjective, but expanding four of them we might have 6 different "dials", each with a range of options - sex categories as a smorgasbord:

  1. Chromosomes: {XX, XY, XXY, XO};
  2. Gonads: {ovaries, testicles, none};
  3. Genitalia: {penis, vagina, none};
  4. Attraction: {to$penis, to$vagina, to$neither};
  5. Gender: {male$gender, female$gender, transgender, gender neutral, non-binary, agender, pangender, genderqueer, two-spirit, third gender, none};
  6. Secondary: {breasts, no$breasts}
So any combination of those, in Novella's fevered imagination, constitutes a separate "sex". So: {XX, testicles, vagina, to$penis, breasts, two-spirit} represents one sex, and all of the other combinations are different "sexes". Which might be ordered somehow and put on a linear scale and graph, the x-axis representing a spectrum of all of those different combinations.

Madder than hatters and profoundly unscientific if not anti-scientific, but it seems that that is what Novella, Shermer, and the rest of the spectrumist nutcases have in "mind".

But that is sort of why I try to emphasize that there's some rhyme and reason to how we define the sexes, that it's not a free-for-all, that there are some fundamental principles of logic, philosophy, and biology in play. And why I think Hilton and company are basically aiding and abetting those nutcases by refusing to consider and utilize those principles.
 
Steersman, I'm genuinely curious: Have you ever convinced anyone to adopt your interpretation of these things? If so, which of your arguments or pieces of evidence did they find most convincing?
 
Steersman, I'm genuinely curious: Have you ever convinced anyone to adopt your interpretation of these things? If so, which of your arguments or pieces of evidence did they find most convincing?

I'm not cutting my arguments from whole cloth, you know? They're based on solid facts, and sound philosophical, logical, taxonomic, and linguistic principles from any number of credible sources. I'm standing on the shoulders of giants - so to speak - even if some of them can't see quite as far as I do, largely for that very reason.

Even Griffiths doesn't seem quite ready, yet, to go with "sexless", but he's at least danced around that conclusion in his Aeon article:

Nothing in the biological definition of sex requires that every organism be a member of one sex or the other. That might seem surprising, but it follows naturally from DEFINING each sex by the ability to do one thing: make eggs or make sperm. Some organisms can do both, while some can't do either [ergo, sexless]. [my editorializing ...]

https://aeon.co/essays/the-existence-of-biological-sex-is-no-constraint-on-human-diversity

And his preprint article further underlines that, in his quite reasonable and eminently sensible view, having a sex is a transitory state of affairs:

Biological sexes (male, female, hermaphrodite) are regions of phenotypic space that individual organisms pass in and out of one or more times during their lives (Figure 1).

The sexes "male" and "female" are just labels for transitory reproductive abilities. They are not any sort of "immutable" identity - which too many insist on trying to turn them into. Not just the transloonie nutcases, but pretty much everyone else. That's the crux of the problem, that's the justification for emphasizing the standard biological definitions of Parker and Lehtonen, of Google/OD, and of Wikipedia (in their more sensible moments).
 
It's not just "anatomies", but three different types of structures, each of which qualifies as a sufficient condition for membership in a polythetic category.
Nope; you are misinterpreting what Hilton wrote. There is only one sufficient condition for maleness, that is, the development of anatomical structures adapted to the production of small gametes. That's two fewer than three "types of structures."

If a kid has balls at six years old and still has them ten years later, those aren't different "types" of structures at all. They are the same structures, differently matured, and either way they are adapted to producing small gametes. At no time was this kid in possession of the only other type of reproductive structures, the type which produces large gametes.

That's why the Wikipedia article on sequential hermaphrodites had to emphasize the difference between functional males and non-functional males.
Take it to the clownfish thread.
 
Last edited:

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom