Merged Russian (genocidal) internal propaganda and goals about Ukraine

[SpitfireIX]

I am not claiming that the Russian Federation is better than the West, or than my country (Belgium).

I believe that, in this instance, both Russia and the West are wrong, and that, like often, the truth is somewhere in the middle, in respect for democracy and peace.

I find it curious that, often, very bright people stop being bright when discussing political isssues.

In other words, anyone who doesn't agree with you that appeasement is a good idea is being stupid.

 

[Craig4]

What has Ukraine ever done that it was not within its rights as a nation state to do?

 

[Craig4]

I don't think this is a matter of really being stupid, it would be more a matter of not using their very real intelligence (used for example when building cars, houses, computers ...) to the fullest, probably because of bad education and brainwashing.

We defer to your expertise on brainwashing.

 

[Michel H]

What has Ukraine ever done that it was not within its rights as a nation state to do?

Shelling civilians in Donetsk is a war crime.

The Ukrainians also need to understand that their controversial borders need to evolve, and adopt a pragmatic and businesslike approach to restore peace.

 

[Craig4]

Shelling civilians in Donetsk is a war crime.

The Ukrainians also need to understand that their controversial borders need to evolve, and adopt a pragmatic and businesslike approach to restore peace.

You need to read up on the Laws of Armed Conflict. Were rebel positions in the vicinity of the civilians? When did the Orcs go to the UN to resolve the border issues?

 

[Craig4]

https://news.yahoo.com/russian-units-west-dnipro-river-161500794.html

More good news from Ukraine. It jives pretty well with what was coming out over the weekend. One hopes Crimea will be under Ukrainian fires soon.

 

[Oystein]

Shelling civilians in Donetsk is a war crime....

No.
And certainly no more than Russians shelling civilians in Sumi, Charkiv, Sievierodonetsk, Lysichansk, Kramatorsk, Kyiv, Lviv, Mykolayev, Odesa, and literally HUNDREDS of other places in Ukraine.

 

[Craig4]

Are there international observers or press who can verify the shelling of civilians by Ukraine? Any sources untainted by the presumption of Russian dishonesty?

 

[ginjawarrior]

Are there international observers or press who can verify the shelling of civilians by Ukraine? Any sources untainted by the presumption of Russian dishonesty?

Nope

 

[trustbutverify]

Shelling civilians in Donetsk is a war crime.

The Ukrainians also need to understand that their controversial borders need to evolve, and adopt a pragmatic and businesslike approach to restore peace.

May I see your evidence that Ukrainian forces were targeting civilians during combat?

 

[Michel H]

May I see your evidence that Ukrainian forces were targeting civilians during combat?

See post #555 for example (and some posts above it).

 

[Craig4]

RT needed not detain us. It's nothing. I see nothing in the BBC article indicating Ukraine targeted civilians nor anything substantiating the claims of deaths. A Russian claim doesn't count for anything.

 

[trustbutverify]

See post #555 for example (and some posts above it).

Putin-Today is a propoganda rag and the BBC explicity states it can't confirm any of this, they're just reporting claims by Russian occupiers.

Do you have any actual evidence the ZSU is deliberately targeting civilians? It's OK if you don't, just admit it.

 

[Michel H]

Putin-Today is a propoganda rag and the BBC explicity states it can't confirm any of this, they're just reporting claims by Russian occupiers.

Do you have any actual evidence the ZSU is deliberately targeting civilians? It's OK if you don't, just admit it.

The BBC has made this story its main headline (with a large picture) on its "War in Ukraine" page: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-60525350.

These are professional journalists, who know how to distinguish between invented, fake stories, and real ones. They probably would not have chosen this report as their main headline if there was probably just nothing to report (the RT article I have cited above shows a video).

It's hard to imagine that the Russian military would shell its own people (there are many reports of Ukrainian attacks against civilians, I have given several examples very recently).

If you declare that Russian journalism is worthless, while British journalism is flawless, this is an example of anti-Russian racism, and Western arrogance. This is your problem, not mine.

I have mentioned recently a problem of inaccurate map used by the BBC. I have never seen RT use an inaccurate map.

 

[Wildy]

It's hard to imagine that the Russian military would shell its own people (there are many reports of Ukrainian attacks against civilians, I have given several examples very recently).

You mean like how they did in Grozny in the 90's?

But considering how often we've seen Russian forces shell the civilians of other countries it's not much of a stretch to think they do that to people in a part of the world they want to ethnically cleanse.

 

[Michel H]

You mean like how they did in Grozny in the 90's?

During the First Chechen War, Grozny was the site of an intense battle lasting from December 1994 to February 1995 and ultimately ending with the capture of the city by the Russian military. Intense fighting and carpet bombing carried out by the Russian Air Force destroyed much of the city.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grozny#First_Chechen_War).

The case of Grozny is completely different because, in 1995, there was a big battle there between Chechen separatists and the Russian military.

 

[Wildy]

So if an opposing military is in a place such as a city that means the entire city is fair game? Because that's how the Russians seem to treat things.

 

[ginjawarrior]

The BBC has made this story its main headline (with a large picture) on its "War in Ukraine" page: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-60525350.

These are professional journalists, who know how to distinguish between invented, fake stories, and real ones. They probably would not have chosen this report as their main headline if there was probably just nothing to report (the RT article I have cited above shows a video).

It's hard to imagine that the Russian military would shell its own people (there are many reports of Ukrainian attacks against civilians, I have given several examples very recently).

If you declare that Russian journalism is worthless, while British journalism is flawless, this is an example of anti-Russian racism, and Western arrogance. This is your problem, not mine.

I have mentioned recently a problem of inaccurate map used by the BBC. I have never seen RT use an inaccurate map.

Donetsk has been controlled by Russia's proxy authorities since 2014.

They have repeatedly accused Ukrainian forces of targeting the city.

Independent confirmation is hard to come by on the ground in separatist-held areas of the east. However, local authorities said nine 150mm shells were fired at the Kuibyshevsky district of Donetsk, from a village to the west of the city.

Local leader Denis Pushilin accused Ukraine of deliberately targeting civilians at a bus-stop, a shop and a bank.

The BBC to s fault is showing both sides of the story here

What they are not doing is showing any evidence..

It's just "these people said this.."

 

[Michel H]

So if an opposing military is in a place such as a city that means the entire city is fair game? Because that's how the Russians seem to treat things.

I wouldn't say fair game, there is a decision to take.

The Russians may have been brutal in Grozny, but Grozny 1995 is very different from Donetsk 2022 (Donetsk is currently controlled by allies of Russia).

 

[arthwollipot]

I believe that, in this instance, both Russia and the West are wrong, and that, like often, the truth is somewhere in the middle, in respect for democracy and peace.

Then why are you advocating for complete Ukrainian surrender and capitulation? That's not "somewhere in the middle", that's firmly on the Russian side.