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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

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Vixen said:
Before anyone says that 'these deformations are to be expected after 27 years', by coincidence, the lifeboat that sank in 1947 - 75 years ago - during a rescue of USS Park Victory, when it crashed into a rock near Utö - not far from a similar location to the Estonia wreck - was located four years ago near Kaarina, and has recently been recovered by another diving enthusiast. It is near intact, apart from the damage that caused it to sink.
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It's cute that you think these are even remotely comparable wrecks. This has been an extremely lengthy thread. In it you have demonstrated clear incompetence in shipbuilding, engineering, physics, seafaring, and investigating shipping accidents. So no, your arrogant, uninformed opinion that recovery of a much smaller, completely dissimilar vessel intact precludes progressive, naturally-occurring deterioration of a large ferry is barely worth noting. Speaking from my 30-years-or-so professional experience in the field, it is my opinion that nothing yet noted -- including the most recent reports -- is inconsistent with post-sinking damage and subsequent structural collapse.
 
Here_to_learn said:
An update from today:

The journalist and "wreck expert" that used a German ship when they filmed the wreck using a remote camera was convicted today in a Swedish court, according to reports in several Swedish newspapers. https://www.dn.se/sverige/filmare-vid-estonia-doms/ https://www.svd.se/a/9zlW5W/tt-flash-estoniafilmare-fallda
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To save people having to translate the article, here's a basic summing up:

Journalist Henrik Evertsson and Linus Andersson, an expert in wreck investigations, are now sentenced to daily fines amounting to SEK 22,400 and SEK 18,800, respectively.

- The district court shares my view that it is punishable. But also that there are no excusable circumstances that would cause these particular people to be released, for example the journalistic interest, says prosecutor Helene Gestrin.

She applied in the district court for conditional prison sentences and fines and tells DN that she could possibly imagine a lighter sentence, but in that case conditional sentences without fines. The district court therefore did the opposite and sentenced, taking into account the journalistic interest in the diving, to a fine, but not a conditional prison sentence.

Helene Gestrin does not rule out appealing the district court verdict.

- I will look at the issue of punishment and reflect on it, she says.
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ibid


I agree with the principle of not disturbing an offical grave site. Howevver, hey! a massive cruise ship sinking within 35" with the deaths of 900 people cannot just be written off a an accident.

Without investigative journalists to keep governments in check, how do we ever find out the truth of a potentially 'diplomatic' incident?
 
Vixen said:
a massive cruise ship sinking within 35"
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35 seconds? Yes, would certainly be a major concern. Didn't happen, though.

35 minutes, and explained by the weather conditions and type of ferry and its condition, is a different matter.
 
Vixen said:
Howevver, hey! a massive cruise ship sinking within 35"
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You mean 35 minutes, of course. Another thing you can't get right.

...with the deaths of 900 people cannot just be written off a an accident.
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It can when all the evidence points to that. You've demonstrated in this thread that (1) you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to the sciences and facts that pertain to this accident, and (2) you will glom onto any source -- regardless of how tenuously supported or unreliable its reputation -- to support you predetermined (albeit entirely self-contradictory) beliefs.

Without investigative journalists to keep governments in check, how do we ever find out the truth of a potentially 'diplomatic' incident?
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Conspiracy theorists have long been fond of trying to call themselves "investigative journalists." Your approach is guaranteed never to find out the truth, or indeed to arrive at any conclusion. You keep bringing up the same debunked garbage time after time, without understanding what you're presenting or being able to understand or appreciate the attempts of of knowledgeable people to correct you.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Sorry to be slow, but for what exactly have Evertsson and Andersson been sentenced to "daily fines"?
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The linked articles don't explain the fine schedule or its legal basis beyond the verdict. The amounts come from the first linked article. The second linked article ends at a paywall after the first paragraph, which doesn't explain the fines. The law they were convicted of breaking is the so-called "Estonia law," which forbids diving on the wreck of MV Estonia. They were initially acquitted, but then retried.

Most likely the conviction carried a fine for each day Evertsson and Andersson were in violation of the law they were convicted of violating.
 
Vixen said:
I agree with the principle of not disturbing an offical grave site.
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Except that you don't, because you endorse the efforts of your fellow conspiracy-theorist sources to violate the law protecting the sanctity of the gravesite. You've justified your vigor and indignation in this thread by pretending to advocate for the dead and survivors. You accuse everyone who disputes your ignorant beliefs, or questions the evidence as a normal investigator would, of disrespecting the victims. But your arguments don't align with whether respect is being paid to the victims. Instead they align with favoring the conspiracy du jour, even if -- as in this case -- the sanctity of the dead be damned.
 
JayUtah said:
The linked articles don't explain the fine schedule or its legal basis beyond the verdict. The amounts come from the first linked article. The second linked article ends at a paywall after the first paragraph, which doesn't explain the fines. The law they were convicted of breaking is the so-called "Estonia law," which forbids diving on the wreck of MV Estonia. They were initially acquitted, but then retried.

Most likely the conviction carried a fine for each day Evertsson and Andersson were in violation of the law they were convicted of violating.
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Thanks. I had imagined daily fines to mean a penalty imposed until they stop doing some unlawful thing they are still doing, but a fine per day of previous infraction makes more sense.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Thanks. I had imagined daily fines to mean a penalty imposed until they stop doing some unlawful thing they are still doing, but a fine per day of previous infraction makes more sense.
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That's certainly how some civil penalties work in the U.S. For example, in my city there is a per diem fine of $75 each day you leave the city sidewalks abutting your property covered with snow and/or ice. And yes, it is regularly assessed.

Evertsson and Andersson were originally acquitted because their expedition used a German-flagged vessel and operated in international waters. Germany was not party to the agreement giving effect to the law forbidding diving on the wreck. An appeals court remanded the case by some murkiness in international law, and the two defendants were convicted upon remand.

I've been unable to find the text of the statute, but the titular reference in Swedish literature is, "Lag (1995:732) om skydd för gravfriden vid vraket efter passagerarfartyget Estonia (Act concerning Protection of Peace of the Maritime Grave at the wreck of the Passenger Vessel Estonia)." Hopefully someone else will prove themselves more resourceful than I, and can then confirm that the fines levied under this law are assessed per diem. But none of the sources I've consulted suggest that the two defendants are engaged in ongoing criminal activity or are being assessed ongoing penalties. The total fine for each defendant amount to the neighborhood of $1700-2000, in case you were wondering.
 
Mojo said:
It could be 35 inches. A ship that size sinking in slightly less than 3 feet of water wouldn’t explain the number of fatalities.
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Right, it has to be in a bathtub and the ship has to be a plastic toy, in which case it will inevitably "turn turtle" regardless of its hull cross section, mass distribution, or hull openings.
 
Vixen said:
I agree with the principle of not disturbing an offical grave site. Howevver, hey! a massive cruise ship sinking within 35" with the deaths of 900 people cannot just be written off a an accident.

Without investigative journalists to keep governments in check, how do we ever find out the truth of a potentially 'diplomatic' incident?
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A journalist who cropped and edited the images from the ROV to give the impression that the rupture in the hull was from an explosion. Had he revealed the full image, where the rock outcrop which caused the rupture is visible, his assertion that the ship was sunk by a bomb would be obviously wrong.

Some of us have also noticed the silence on the current investigation conducted this past summer is deafening.

Here are the updates:

https://www.baltictimes.com/ms_esto...starboard_side_greater_than_previously_known/

The purpose of acoustic profiling was to study the seabed in the immediate vicinity of the wreck. It turned out that there is an outcrop of basement rock near the wreck, and there is both a softer and harder layer of clay around the wreck. When the underwater robot touched the outcrop of the basement rock that was under the wreck near the damage, it was a hard rock from which the robot's grip bounced back.
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https://www.baltictimes.com/photogrammetric_survey_of_ms_estonia_wreck_starting_tuesday/

The ship to be used for the survey is VOS Sweet, a research vessel flying the Dutch flag. The same ship was also used during the 3D laser scanning surveys of the wreck of MS Estonia two weeks earlier. The photogrammetric survey will last for around two weeks.
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We can expect the report sometime this fall. Looks like they plan to recover the bow ramp for closer study.

And it looks like there's yet another mini-series based on the sinking:

https://www.kftv.com/news/2022/08/11/case-study-estonia-tv-series

:thumbsup:
 
JayUtah said:
I've been unable to find the text of the statute, but the titular reference in Swedish literature is, "Lag (1995:732) om skydd för gravfriden vid vraket efter passagerarfartyget Estonia (Act concerning Protection of Peace of the Maritime Grave at the wreck of the Passenger Vessel Estonia)."
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The law is here: https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokumen...-skydd-for-gravfriden-vid-vraket_sfs-1995-732

3 § Den som uppsåtligen bryter mot 2 § döms till böter eller fängelse i högst två år. För försök döms till ansvar enligt 23 kap. brottsbalken
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My translation: A person who intentionally violates section 2 is sentenced to a fine or imprisonment for a maximum of two years. Attempts are sentenced to liability according to ch. 23. of the the criminal code

So the court decides, and they can pick anything from fines up to a prison sentence, depending on the severity of the crime. When it comes to Day-fines, the courts decide on the number of days to be imposed. The actual fine is then calculated based on each individuals income.
 
Axxman300 said:
A journalist who cropped and edited the images from the ROV to give the impression that the rupture in the hull was from an explosion. Had he revealed the full image, where the rock outcrop which caused the rupture is visible, his assertion that the ship was sunk by a bomb would be obviously wrong.
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He also admitted that he published only the damage that fit his collision/explosion narrative, even though he observed other damage along the hull that was inconsistent with it. Seen in retrospective totality, Evertsson's behavior seems more consistent with making a personal splash as a filmmaker than with holding powerful interests accountable to an objective truth.

Looks like they plan to recover the bow ramp for closer study.
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I would definitely be interested in a proper forensic study of the bow ramp.
 
Here_to_learn said:
When it comes to Day-fines, the courts decide on the number of days to be imposed. The actual fine is then calculated based on each individuals income.
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I understood the abstract notion of income-proportional fines. But I want to understand the mechanism in detail, so correct me where I'm wrong. A court that decides to impose "day fines" uses the severity of the crime (the facts of the actual offense, assessments of malice, impact on victims, etc.) to determine a number of days that equates to their levy of punishment? And then however much the defendant would have earned in that number of days according to his annual wages is the monetary amount of the fine?

If you wanted to do something like that in the U.S. you'd have to base it on net worth. Most of our Uber-rich people actually get paid a very small annual salary and maintain their lifestyles by trading on equities (which are taxed at a much lower rate than income).
 
JayUtah said:
I understood the abstract notion of income-proportional fines. But I want to understand the mechanism in detail, so correct me where I'm wrong. A court that decides to impose "day fines" uses the severity of the crime (the facts of the actual offense, assessments of malice, impact on victims, etc.) to determine a number of days that equates to their levy of punishment? And then however much the defendant would have earned in that number of days according to his annual wages is the monetary amount of the fine?

If you wanted to do something like that in the U.S. you'd have to base it on net worth. Most of our Uber-rich people actually get paid a very small annual salary and maintain their lifestyles by trading on equities (which are taxed at a much lower rate than income).
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I'll try to explain what I have understood of the method. But some may only make sense if you also get to understand the Swedish system for taxation.

The details on how to calculate the day-fine are described in this document.

  1. Basically you start from the total yearly gross income (before tax).
  2. 20% is discounted for the part over a certain amount (that requires you to pay the national rate for tax).
  3. Subtract an amount for each child that is dependent on the person.
  4. Divide the result by 1000.
  5. Add on an amount based on your worth (savings - debts)
  6. Potentially - discount for a significant net debt.

The gross income that you start with include all types of incomes, so both salaries, earnings from trading as well as any subsidiaries.

I hope that made sense - I have managed not to put myself in a situation where I've had to understand the rules in detail!
 
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