Merged Russian (genocidal) internal propaganda and goals about Ukraine

[Jack by the hedge]

The problem is that Zelensky seems to be obsessed by the idea of a "great Ukraine" (which would imply keeping Russian-speaking population under Ukrainian rule)...

You are still obsessed with your completely wrong assumption that Russian-speaking Ukrainians want to be Russians.

How can we even begin to take your arguments seriously?

 

[Michel H]

You are still obsessed with your completely wrong assumption that Russian-speaking Ukrainians want to be Russians.

No, I didn't say such a thing.

Kharkiv is a good example of a very large and industrial city, which is mostly Russian-speaking:

Russian is the most common first language in the Donbas and Crimea regions of Ukraine and the city of Kharkiv, and the predominant language in large cities in the eastern and southern portions of the country.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language_in_Ukraine)
, but generally wants to remain Ukrainian:

Gamlet Zinkivskyi grew up speaking Russian in the city of Kharkiv, just like his parents. But when Vladimir Putin launched the invasion of Ukraine on 24 February, it was the final push for him to switch fully to Ukrainian.

(https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...krainians-reject-their-russian-birth-language)

Zelensky wants to conquer Russian-speaking and pro-Russian Crimea using Western weapons and money. I believe he should set more reasonable goals to himself.

 

[Dave Rogers]

I believe he should set more reasonable goals to himself.

Because in bizarro world it's Ukraine that's behaving unreasonably in not wanting to be invaded.

Dave

 

[Michel H]

Because in bizarro world it's Ukraine that's behaving unreasonably in not wanting to be invaded.

Dave

Ukraine is not entirely responsible for all the trouble it is currently in, I believe it has had some bad luck, but it should have the courage to make some significant political concessions, which are key for peace (Crimea remains in Russia, neutrality, primacy of democracy and so on), but unfortunately Zelensky doesn't want to hear about that.

It's not difficult to understand but, when people becomes too focused on "military heroism", this is a dangerous and toxic situation:

Difficult, but so important and necessary VICTORY!
Defending the title of world champion is a symbol that all those who are of Cossack sort will not give up their own, they will fight for it and will definitely win!

(https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1561134831991459841)

 

[arthwollipot]

Ukraine is not entirely responsible for all the trouble it is currently in, I believe it has had some bad luck, but it should have the courage to make some significant political concessions, which are key for peace (Crimea remains in Russia, neutrality, primacy of democracy and so on), but unfortunately Zelensky doesn't want to hear about that.

So, again, just cave and submit to all of Russia's demands.

**** that.

 

[erwinl]

Ukraine is not entirely responsible for all the trouble it is currently in, I believe it has had some bad luck, but it should have the courage to make some significant political concessions, which are key for peace (Crimea remains in Russia, neutrality, primacy of democracy and so on), but unfortunately Zelensky doesn't want to hear about that.

It's not difficult to understand but, when people becomes too focused on "military heroism", this is a dangerous and toxic situation:

(https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1561134831991459841)

When is Belgium going to resolve it's illegal annexation of the Kelmis area? None of the people living there at the time wanted to become Belgians you know.
They had been working very hard to become their own independant country before annexation by Belgium.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Why?

In order to bring peace, to end this conflict which is painful to many people, not only in Ukraine and Russia, but also in Western Europe for example (think about energy prices, inflation ...).

It would be nice to decide democratically which regions belongs to which country.

It would be nice, which leaves me wondering why you don't support that idea. At no point have you suggested that, rather than invade, Russia ask for a referendum in the regions of Ukraine it is currently occupying, to see what the people there actually want.
Presumably, you should also insist that Russia conduct similar referendums in such regions as Chechnya, which have expressed quite a strong desire to become independent.

 

[Mike!]

This is the logic that tells a rape victim to just lay back and take it, it'll all be over soon enough.

 

[Wildy]

In addition, from a legal point of view, the 1954 transfer of Crimea from Russia to Ukraine has been controversial for a long time

"A long time" being "since 2009" if you go by the Wiki article you mentioned. Most of the issues in that region are solely centred around the city of Sevastopol after the collapse of the USSR. Until the dissolution of the USSR, Soviet sources considered Sevastopol to be part of the UkSSR.

As far as I know, this transfer wasn't ratified by the parliaments of Russia, Crimea (if any, at the time), and Sevastopol (a large city and port in Crimea which had special status):

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_transfer_of_Crimea#Aftermath).

Crimea and Sevastopol didn't get a say in any of that because the transfer of regions was done at the Union Republic level, Sevastopol, being a city, isn't a Union Republic, and Crimea was only an Autonomous Republic until 1945 (and again in 1991) which also isn't a Union Republic.

The constitutional change the RSFSR made on the 2nd of June 1954 removing Crimea from the list of subdivisions could be considered ratification in the sense that the removal of Crimea from the RSFSR constitution indicates that they assented to the change. This source, which is also in the Wiki articles that you cite, state that post-Soviet Russia accepted the transfer in 1954 in the Belovezh Accords of 1991 and the Budapest Memorandum of 1994.

 

[dudalb]

Russia Propganda is now openly caliing to get more brutal with Ukraine over the death of Dugin's daughter. I don't want to think about what more brutal might mean.

 

[Michel H]

When is Belgium going to resolve it's illegal annexation of the Kelmis area? None of the people living there at the time wanted to become Belgians you know.
They had been working very hard to become their own independant country before annexation by Belgium.

That was in the nineteenth century, probably. They don't seem to be complaining now about being part of the kingdom of Belgium.

Belgium received Kelmis in 1919, as a compensation after World War I losses.

 

[Michel H]

It would be nice, which leaves me wondering why you don't support that idea. At no point have you suggested that, rather than invade, Russia ask for a referendum in the regions of Ukraine it is currently occupying, to see what the people there actually want.

Referendums have actually already taken place in 2014, in Crimea, and the two Donbass republics (Donetsk and Luhansk).

 

[Wildy]

And you were supposed to hold a referendum on whether the German speaking regions wanted to stay as part of Belgium but that never happened.

 

[Michel H]

So, again, just cave and submit to all of Russia's demands.

**** that.

No, not all of them.

It seems to me that, in a good peace agreement, Russia should withdraw its military forces from Ukraine, i.e. these forces should go back to their positions before February 24, 2022.

This would be a major concession from Moscow and a major achievement for Ukraine, I think.

 

[Wildy]

How is that a concession?

 

[Michel H]

How is that a concession?

Russian forces should, for example, evacuate Kherson:

Kherson is an important port on the Black Sea and on the Dnieper River, and the home of a major ship-building industry. Since March 2022, the city has been occupied by Russian forces following their invasion of Ukraine

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kherson)

 

[Wildy]

That does not answer my question.

 

[arthwollipot]

When is Belgium going to resolve it's illegal annexation of the Kelmis area? None of the people living there at the time wanted to become Belgians you know.
They had been working very hard to become their own independant country before annexation by Belgium.

When is France going to resolve its illegal annexation of Britain? None of the Anglo-Saxons wanted to be subservient to Norman kings.

 

[Craig4]

Yes, there is a land connection to mainland Ukraine, while there is no natural land connection to nearby Russia (there is just a bridge).

But I don't think that's an excuse for removing all the blue water, and replacing it by a kind of dark or bluish red (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62613013). In the present context, this is even a major informational crime, imo, because uninformed people will unmistakably believe there is a long land border between Crimea and mainland Ukraine.

This map was made by the U.S. Institute for the Study of War:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_the_Study_of_War).

These corporations may have a financial interest in promoting war.

There is no border between Crimea and Ukraine. Crimea is just Ukraine. There is a Forward Edge of Battle between a foreign army of occupation and Ukrainian forces attempting to expel and invader but that is not a border.

 

[Craig4]

Russian forces should, for example, evacuate Kherson:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kherson)

Russia should for example, evacuate Ukraine and return their forces to pre-2014 locations.