Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

[Shalamar]

That is the question I came into this thread with, what seems like an eternity ago, and also just yesterday.

I didn't want to subject serious, sincere transwomen to "papers please" when they go to use their gender-identified restroom. But I also couldn't think of any other way to square that circle.

Now, I'm pretty sure "papers please" is the only workable solution, and that papers should be reserved for people who have been diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and prescribed access to sex-segregated spaces as a medically-recognized treatment for their condition.

And yes, that means that masculine females are sometimes going to get asked for their papers, too. It sucks, but what other options are there? For sure trans-rights activists aren't trying to come up with any. Their proposed solution boils down to: Any man should have access to sex-segregated spaces purely on the basis of them saying they want it. This solves the "papers please" riddle in the most misogynistic way possible. So it's a non-starter for me.

That's an interesting way to do it, and 'not feminine enough' women are likely to be a minority. Would all women have to carry 'papers' to prove femininity? Would they tolerate it?

 

[theprestige]

That's an interesting way to do it, and 'not feminine enough' women are likely to be a minority. Would all women have to carry 'papers' to prove femininity? Would they tolerate it?

Up until the advent of "gender assigned at birth" nonsense, pretty much all women did carry papers to prove - well, not femininity, but womanhood. They also were, by and large, not subject to challenge when entering a women's restroom or women's shelter. But if they were challenged, their driver's license or similar ID would suffice for "papers, please".

And of course a woman's access to things like women's sports and women's prisons was very well papered, in the conventional way of such things. Really true edge cases like Caster Semenya are extremely rare. Deliberate institutional fraud, such as suspected (joked about?) regarding certain women's athletic teams from East Germany and the Soviet Union, were also rare.

 

[smartcooky]

How are those going to help, exactly? Suppose a woman has a hysterectomy as a result of postpartum complications. She is no longer female, in your view. What sports league should she play in? A new one for sexless people?

Really? This is just nitpicking and it certainly does not advance the debate.

If you look at the definitions posted by Steersman, it makes no mention of the person, it just says what the sex is. A male does not cease to be a male when he loses his virility, and a female does not cease to be a female after she goes through menopause. Queen Victoria, for example, was female, and regarded as such - even thought she is now dead.

I tried to making allowances for things that happen to people both naturally and artificially in the definitions I posted earlier, but I guess it probably is not possible to avoid having some nitpicking smartass come up with whataboutisms and edge cases.

But if you insist, let's modify Steerman's posted definitions, slightly to apply to humans and account for the whatboutism...


male (adjective): A person who is, or will be, or was at any time in their life, or would have been under normal medical circumstances, biologically and physiologically capable of producing gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring.

female (adjective): A person who is, or will be, or was at any time in their life, or would have been under normal medical circumstances, biologically and physiologically capable of bearing offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.

 

[LondonJohn]

That's an interesting way to do it, and 'not feminine enough' women are likely to be a minority. Would all women have to carry 'papers' to prove femininity? Would they tolerate it?

Yes, exactly. And I can see that working out really well:

[Tall woman with prominent Adam's apple and chiselled facial features enters women's bathroom]

Ciswoman in bathroom (to tall woman): Excuse me, are you a proper woman?

Tall woman: Ummmm what? Yes I am.

Ciswoman: Hmmm, I'm not entirely convinced. You kinda look like a male to me. Show me some certification to prove you're not a cisman pretending to be a transwoman.

Tall woman: Uhh excuse me? I am a natural female, so why would I be in possession of any kind of transgender certificate?

Ciswoman: Hmm yes, well that's exactly what a cisman masquerading as a transwoman would say. And I'm not comfortable sharing the bathroom with you while that's a possibility.

Tall woman: Well, how do you propose that we sort this out?

Ciswoman: Well..... either you leave the bathroom right now, or you allow me to see your genitals and breasts so that I can more reliably check on your status.

 

[d4m10n]

A male does not cease to be a male when he loses his virility, and a female does not cease to be a female after she goes through menopause.

I agree with this, Steersman doesn't.

Sent from my Grotti Itali RSX using Tapatalk

 

[LondonJohn]

Up until the advent of "gender assigned at birth" nonsense, pretty much all women did carry papers to prove - well, not femininity, but womanhood. They also were, by and large, not subject to challenge when entering a women's restroom or women's shelter. But if they were challenged, their driver's license or similar ID would suffice for "papers, please".

And of course a woman's access to things like women's sports and women's prisons was very well papered, in the conventional way of such things. Really true edge cases like Caster Semenya are extremely rare. Deliberate institutional fraud, such as suspected (joked about?) regarding certain women's athletic teams from East Germany and the Soviet Union, were also rare.

1) Do you have any real-world examples from history where one or more women in a women's bathroom actually challenged another woman in the bathroom to prove her female status by way of showing a driver's licence or other ID paper? (Because I'm inclined to think that this has almost never happened in the entire history of women's public bathrooms in the "western" world. Obviously however, I approach this from a male cisman perspective, but maybe one of our resident females would elaborate on whether they've ever witnessed such a challenge or even heard (reliably) about one.)

2) People identifying as transgender will, in any case, be able to apply to change the gender/sex on their ID documents to match their trans gender.

 

[LondonJohn]

PS: Across Europe and the US, the absolute torrent of men who are not transgender pretending to be transgender - for nefarious purposes - continues to grow exponentially.



Not.

 

[theprestige]

Well that took a weird turn. I think most people would be satisfied by a doctor's note. Or a government ID as a reliable proxy.

 

[theprestige]

PS: Across Europe and the US, the absolute torrent of men who are not transgender pretending to be transgender - for nefarious purposes - continues to grow exponentially.



Not.

I don't think you get to say "pretending to be transgender". Since "transgender" doesn't actually mean anything. An unintended consequence, perhaps, of diluting the meaning of "gender".

But what you probably can say is that there are a growing number of men who are pretending to be transsexual, if not for nefarious purposes, then perhaps not realizing what they're actually trying to do, and what it actually means.

 

[smartcooky]

Yes, exactly. And I can see that working out really well:

[Tall woman with prominent Adam's apple and chiselled facial features enters women's bathroom]

Ciswoman in bathroom (to tall woman): Excuse me, are you a proper woman?

Tall woman: Ummmm what? Yes I am.

Ciswoman: Hmmm, I'm not entirely convinced. You kinda look like a male to me. Show me some certification to prove you're not a cisman pretending to be a transwoman.

Tall woman: Uhh excuse me? I am a natural female, so why would I be in possession of any kind of transgender certificate?

Ciswoman: Hmm yes, well that's exactly what a cisman masquerading as a transwoman would say. And I'm not comfortable sharing the bathroom with you while that's a possibility.

Tall woman: Well, how do you propose that we sort this out?

Ciswoman: Well..... either you leave the bathroom right now, or you allow me to see your genitals and breasts so that I can more reliably check on your status.

A pathetic, 100% made up, imaginary example that is never going to happen... at least not unless your "tall woman with prominent Adam's apple and chiselled facial features" actually IS a tranny.

How about this person going into into a women's toilet to perve at real women (and this HAS happened, the person shown here has been charged with exactly this crime).....

Do you find THIS guy's presence in a women's toilet acceptable?
.
.

 

[Vixen]

Appeals to popularity or authority won't work here.

I (and others) think this is an obviously bad idea, and an objectively misogynistic one, for reasons that have been explained in great depth and detail in this thread. Similarly, the basis for these kinds of decisions seems to best explained as ideological capture of nincompoops by scumbags.

It's obvious you've thought none of this through, and are crossing your fingers that the German football league has. But if you had thought any of this through, you'd realize the German football league probably hasn't.

Anyway, I'll put you down as plus one for "ignorantly endorsing fiat self-ID as the standard for trans rights in public policy".

All I did was provide a factual news item. I neither endorsed nor condemned the German view on this matter.

 

[Vixen]

The future of female football is male.

That is very silly. As you know, the biological sexes, male and female are not polar, but like so many things in nature, are on a continuum. For example, some men are far more masculine than others, with perhaps as much bodily hair as a silverback gorilla and a gravel voice and some women look like a bloke.

 

[Vixen]

Any plans afoot to respond to my earlier response to you?

Particularly about whether "you accept, or not, the standard biological definitions for the sexes?"

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13880709&postcount=1886

Inquiring minds, and all that ...

As I said earlier, whilst there are the basic biological sexes, give or take a spare X or Y chromosome, there is far more to it than that. Physiologists can't agree on whether there is such a thing as a male or female brain. Then there is the sociological factor. People behave according to social constructs thrust on them since birth. Looking at old family photos, the little boys look exactly like little girls, with long flowing locks and cute outfits. By the time they are seven then they are firmly separated into their male or female outward appearance. There is the psychological factor. Some 'men' do not feel themselves to be macho and swaggering, some women do not feel themselves to be the subordinate 'little woman' whose role in life is as mother, housewife and servant. Then there is the psychic factor. Some are absolutely convinced they are in the wrong sex. Who are you to bully them into being what your everyman view of the world is?

 

[Vixen]

That is the question I came into this thread with, what seems like an eternity ago, and also just yesterday.

I didn't want to subject serious, sincere transwomen to "papers please" when they go to use their gender-identified restroom. But I also couldn't think of any other way to square that circle.

Now, I'm pretty sure "papers please" is the only workable solution, and that papers should be reserved for people who have been diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and prescribed access to sex-segregated spaces as a medically-recognized treatment for their condition.

And yes, that means that masculine females are sometimes going to get asked for their papers, too. It sucks, but what other options are there? For sure trans-rights activists aren't trying to come up with any. Their proposed solution boils down to: Any man should have access to sex-segregated spaces purely on the basis of them saying they want it. This solves the "papers please" riddle in the most misogynistic way possible. So it's a non-starter for me.

Do you seriously believe that 'all athletes are equal depending on their assigned gender at birth'? Perhaps you watched the European Games from Munich this week and were lulled into thinking hey, this reflects the natural order of things! In reality, these elite Olympics level athletes or International level footballers, are a tiny tiny fraction of the general population. The elite of the elite and (alas, sadly) the average man walking down the street doesn't look like a male hunk or a female goddess.

Who cares if little Gemima wants to join the egg and spoon race with little Jimmy? Is it really the end of the world if she wins it?

 

[Vixen]

Yes, exactly. And I can see that working out really well:

[Tall woman with prominent Adam's apple and chiselled facial features enters women's bathroom]

Ciswoman in bathroom (to tall woman): Excuse me, are you a proper woman?

Tall woman: Ummmm what? Yes I am.

Ciswoman: Hmmm, I'm not entirely convinced. You kinda look like a male to me. Show me some certification to prove you're not a cisman pretending to be a transwoman.

Tall woman: Uhh excuse me? I am a natural female, so why would I be in possession of any kind of transgender certificate?

Ciswoman: Hmm yes, well that's exactly what a cisman masquerading as a transwoman would say. And I'm not comfortable sharing the bathroom with you while that's a possibility.

Tall woman: Well, how do you propose that we sort this out?

Ciswoman: Well..... either you leave the bathroom right now, or you allow me to see your genitals and breasts so that I can more reliably check on your status.

This reminds me of the time former Olympic swimmer Sharon Davies came to our wine shipping company offices to discuss the prospect of marketing for us, to much excitement. Sharon Davies looks VERY androgynous, tall, chiselled features, slim hips, broad shoulders and powerful physique and yet she is vehementally anti-transgender, not realising that her androgynous features almost certainly helped her in her swimming career, where small 0.001 margins count.

 

[smartcooky]

This reminds me of the time former Olympic swimmer Sharon Davies came to our wine shipping company offices to discuss the prospect of marketing for us, to much excitement. Sharon Davies looks VERY androgynous, tall, chiselled features, slim hips, broad shoulders and powerful physique and yet she is vehementally anti-transgender, not realising that her androgynous features almost certainly helped her in her swimming career, where small 0.001 margins count.

Utter rubbish. She doesn't look the slightest bit androgynous to me. She looks like a very attractive woman - hard to believe she is only 7 years younger than me.

 

[Ziggurat]

That is very silly. As you know, the biological sexes, male and female are not polar, but like so many things in nature, are on a continuum. For example, some men are far more masculine than others, with perhaps as much bodily hair as a silverback gorilla and a gravel voice and some women look like a bloke.

You have confused secondary sexual characteristics with sex. They are related, but still not at all the same. Biological sex in humans is indeed binary. And even the few genetic disorders which may blur the issue do not actually play a role in the transgender issue, which is entirely about clear cut biologically male or female people wanting to adopt the role of the other sex.

 

[Ziggurat]

Do you seriously believe that 'all athletes are equal depending on their assigned gender at birth'?

Gender is not assigned at birth. Sex is observed at birth. Any time someone says gender is assigned at birth, it is a guarantee that they are not discussing the issue honestly and factually, they are spouting dogma.

Who cares if little Gemima wants to join the egg and spoon race with little Jimmy? Is it really the end of the world if she wins it?

Audiences who watch female sports watch it because they want to see females compete. If they want to watch males compete, they watch male sports. If males start winning female competitions, it's not the end of the world, but it very well may be the end of female sports. Why would audiences want to watch that?

If you don't care about the existence of female sports, that's fine. But just be honest about it.

 

[lionking]

Gender is not assigned at birth. Sex is observed at birth. Any time someone says gender is assigned at birth, it is a guarantee that they are not discussing the issue honestly and factually, they are spouting dogma.


Audiences who watch female sports watch it because they want to see females compete. If they want to watch males compete, they watch male sports. If males start winning female competitions, it's not the end of the world, but it very well may be the end of female sports. Why would audiences want to watch that?

If you don't care about the existence of female sports, that's fine. But just be honest about it.

Very good post. I ask Vixen to speak to women competitors who are beaten by male bodied transwomen (and in professional sport, denied income) how they feel about this.

 

[Rolfe]

I spent hours travelling to and from my holiday sitting in airports watching people go by. I saw only one person I couldn't sex instantly - then he obligingly removed his baseball cap and sweatshirt, almost removing his t-shirt as well, leaving me in no doubt. If he'd been closer, or not wearing the baseball cap, or (even better) I'd heard his voice, I don't think I'd have been in any doubt in the first place.

Young or old, black or white, bearded or not, tall or short, fat or thin, long or short hair, casual or smart dress, it didn't seem to matter. Everyone was recognisably male or female pretty much instantly apart from that one young man. And he wasn't in doubt for long.

Butch lesbians don't look like men. Effeminate men don't look like women. (There were two butch lesbians ahead of me in one queue for the Ladies - not together. Nobody batted an eyelid, because they're women and we're all used to seeing them as members of our own sex.)

We can easily distinguish men from women without undressing them in almost all cases. The few genuinely androgynous-looking individuals will get the benefit of the doubt so long as they really are unidentifiable as their actual sex at close quarters, and so long as they don't do or say anything inappropriate.

This is a perfectly workable solution and it has worked for a century and more. But the minute you give any man the LEGAL RIGHT to enter women's intimate spaces, all bets are off. We can no longer police these spaces because we have no way to tell whether the man we are confronted by is one of these privileged individuals or not.