Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

[Emily's Cat]

Try this, for example (and, incidentally, it's fairly easy to find this stuff online if one is so inclined....):

First off, none of your links support your assertion. Let me remind you of your claim:

Is transmen being men and transwomen being women the kind of thing that one can have an expert opinion on? It's not like "essence of man" has been discovered à la Barbarella.

Yes. Yes it is. That's precisely how and why the relevant expert scientific/medical bodies have formulated and expressed their opinion on it.

Here, you have very clearly said that "science" has the "expert opinion" that transmen are really for realsies men, and transwomen are totally for realsies women. Your links show nothing of the sort. Indeed, the section you quoted out doesn't even support your assertion. You've jumped from hearing footsteps to assuming unicorns, without touching the ground in between.

Now, as for the "expert" element of your claims...

https://www.onlinepsychologydegree.info/faq/how-does-science-explain-transgenderism/

A sample sentence from that piece:

"They are, however, nearly unanimous in their opinion that transgenderism is not a manifestation of mental illness."

Online PSychology Degree Guide is NOT a relevant authority of any sort. The article you linked to does not support its own assertions, contains no references, and provides no actual data. It is a collection of beliefs put forth by a site that is not even remotely scientific in nature.

And one that you really ought to be well aware of already:

https://time.com/5596845/world-health-organization-transgender-identity/

(Even with a firewall in place on time.com, the headline alone will suffice.

The headline is literally the only semi-relevant take-away from that article, and it also does not support your assertion.

I mean, there are many, many more information sources available which point to the same conclusions among experts (i.e. people who know a huge amount more about this subject than either me or you).

I still await your relevant citations from actual authorities.

(And just as a footnote: my claim was/is that it's both possible and valid for experts to form a view on transgender identity. Which they are constantly doing, on the back of research and analysis. And by stating their view - that transgender identity is valid (i.e. that it's not a mental disorder or the product of one), they absolutely are stating that transmen are men (and vice versa).)

This is where you've jumped from footsteps to unicorns. What you believe is the conclusion does not necessarily follow.

 

[Emily's Cat]

That's an additional possible side-effect warning, they rightly already have side-effect warnings. If I was a parent and they were being suggested for treatment of anything it would take a lot to convince me it was the best option.


Interesting nugget under the story:

Six cases were identified that supported a plausible association between GnRH agonist use and pseudotumor cerebri. All six cases were reported in birth-assigned females ages 5 to 12 years. Five were undergoing treatment for central precocious puberty and one for transgender care. The onset of pseudotumor cerebri symptoms ranged from three to 240 days after GnRH agonist initiation.​

Well yes, there are already lists of side effects for the primary and approved secondary indications of these drugs. Use as puberty blockers in children without precocious puberty is NOT an FDA Approved secondary indication. That they're applying side effect warnings for an off-label use that doesn't even have FDA usage approval is actually pretty significant.

 

[Emily's Cat]

This should go without saying. Of course trans women are not women. They are males who choose to self-identify as females. Even if they have had transition surgery and are taking hormones, they still have male bone structure, male neural pathways, and if you do a gender-ID blood test, the test will show them as male. Even when criminals leave a blood smear, their gender can be determined by analyzing the blood for form a and form c neutrophils.

I find it very odd that liberals who always talk about "fairness" and "justice" see nothing unfair or unjust about allowing biological males to compete against biological females in female sporting events.

Go look at films and photos of Lia Thomas at female swimming competitions. She towers over nearly all the female swimmers and is clearly much more muscular than they are--yeah, because he's a guy who calls himself a girl. Even his parents have publicly called for Thomas to be barred from female swimming events because of his clear biological advantage.

Thomas's height is given as 6'1". Some sources say 5'8". He looks 6'1" to me. But even at 5'8" that would put him 4 inches taller than the average American female. The average height for American females is 5'4".

Even when Thomas competed against two Olympian female swimmers, he finished far ahead of them. Well, yeah, because he's a guy. He has more muscle mass than they do. He is stronger than they are, much stronger.

Perhaps this craziness will stop when the first NBA star self-identifies as female and demands to play in the WNBA.

I agree with all of your post. Personally, I'm still stuck at "This should go without saying. Of course trans women are not women. They are males who choose to self-identify as females." and still scratch my head as to why there continues to be disagreement on that most fundamental fact.

 

[Emily's Cat]

We are all happy it has happened. We are happy that more and more organizations and policymakers are recognizing that it needs to happen. We are unhappy that distressingly few organizations and policymakers recognized the obvious need and forestall it before it became a reality. We are unhappy that trans-activists are still pressing for the opposite.

Clear and concise and spot-on.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You appear to be under the misapprehension that all Liberals think transwomen are women and that all Conservatives think they are not.

I believe this is a case of "not all liberals, but almost exclusively liberals". It's DEFINITELY not all liberals, as the gender critical and radical feminist opposition is extremely liberal overall. There are likely some conservatives here and there that are on board, I would guess those old school fiscal conservatives who genuinely don't care about anything social, only government spending. But I still think it's true that the supporters of it are far disproportionately liberal, particularly progressive.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Possibly of some interest here:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/30/...er-get-out-to-be-charged-again-at-age-83.html

This is the kind of thing that really breaks my brain. I mean, it's an easily foreseeable risk, and one that any compassionate person would try to negate. It's disheartening that the virtue signaling and support for one person's feelings overrides any extrapolative thinking and care. I end up depressed about the future of humanity.

 

[Emily's Cat]

But the reasons exist, I can assure you.

This right here, this is sophisticated theology.

 

[smartcooky]

I believe this is a case of "not all liberals, but almost exclusively liberals". It's DEFINITELY not all liberals, as the gender critical and radical feminist opposition is extremely liberal overall. There are likely some conservatives here and there that are on board, I would guess those old school fiscal conservatives who genuinely don't care about anything social, only government spending. But I still think it's true that the supporters of it are far disproportionately liberal, particularly progressive.

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/29/1107484965/transgender-athletes-trans-rights-gender-transition-poll

Americans are widely opposed to allowing transgender female athletes to compete on women's and girls' sports teams, and, according to a new NPR/Ipsos poll, are deeply split along partisan lines on questions of transgender rights.

The NPR/Ipsos poll shows that nearly two-thirds of Americans (63%) are opposed to allowing transgender women and girls to compete on teams that align with their gender identity, while 24% overall support that.

Among Democrats, opinion is fairly split: a plurality, 46%, support trans female athletes' right to compete on women's and girls sports teams, while 41% oppose it.

Independent voters oppose trans female athletes right to compete by 3:1 (21% support; 63% oppose).

Among Republicans, support plummets to just 4%, while 88% oppose.​

While 4% is small, it is not insignificant... its 1 in 25

Still, this poll rather shoots down mikegriffith1's "liberals" rant.

 

[Darat]

Well yes, there are already lists of side effects for the primary and approved secondary indications of these drugs. Use as puberty blockers in children without precocious puberty is NOT an FDA Approved secondary indication. That they're applying side effect warnings for an off-label use that doesn't even have FDA usage approval is actually pretty significant.

The warning isn't being applied for off-label uses or because off-label use has been deemed additionally dangerous - it is being applied for all uses. The snippet I quoted stated that of the 6 cases they looked at 5 were being treated for precocious puberty, an on-label use for the drug.

 

[shuttlt]

I agree with all of your post. Personally, I'm still stuck at "This should go without saying. Of course trans women are not women. They are males who choose to self-identify as females." and still scratch my head as to why there continues to be disagreement on that most fundamental fact.

It isn't a fact, it's an axiom. There is a view in counter enlightenment circles that, when fundamental concepts in your society are up for question like this, you are lost. Society necessarily rests on things that can't be proven. If you approach these things as rational propositions that are up for debate, then society picks itself apart like a deranged parrot plucking out it's own feathers. "Are trans-women women?" is not a rationally answerable question. If you treat it as if it is a rational question, you are entering a battle that can not be won.

 

[LondonJohn]

I agree with all of your post. Personally, I'm still stuck at "This should go without saying. Of course trans women are not women. They are males who choose to self-identify as females." and still scratch my head as to why there continues to be disagreement on that most fundamental fact.

I'm happy that you and several other likeminded posters here appear to a) know more about, and b) be more expert about, the issue of transgender identity - and its validity (or otherwise) than the actual experts.

You should probably email them and tell them they don't know what they're talking about and they've got it all wrong. I'm sure they'd sit up and take notice.

 

[LondonJohn]

(And by the way, I'm sure that in the 1970s and 1980s the psychology/psychiatry expert communities - plus progressive governments around the world - had similar constituencies taking issue with their classification of homosexuality as a valid condition. These other "experts" remained just as convinced as ever that to be gay was to be deviant and/or mentally ill and/or against God. And whatever the actual experts were saying, they just KNEW it was ignorant and wrong (and/or "ideology captured LOL). Just sayin'....)

 

[smartcooky]

(And by the way, I'm sure that in the 1970s and 1980s the psychology/psychiatry expert communities - plus progressive governments around the world - had similar constituencies taking issue with their classification of homosexuality as a valid condition. These other "experts" remained just as convinced as ever that to be gay was to be deviant and/or mentally ill and/or against God. And whatever the actual experts were saying, they just KNEW it was ignorant and wrong (and/or "ideology captured LOL). Just sayin'....)

Nope, this is a blind and a distraction. Homosexuals do not impact, and never have impacted, on the rights of others. Homosexuls do not have a physical advantage in sports, and they do not demand to use the safe spaces of other sexes. Male homosexuals compete in male sports and use male toilets and changing rooms - lesbians compete in female sports and use female toilets and changing rooms.

The legality of homosexuality issues pre-1980's is not in any way related to the issues of transgender people no - the use of the previous legality issues of homosexuality as a lever in this debate is both disingenuous and dishonest.

 

[Emily's Cat]

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/29/1107484965/transgender-athletes-trans-rights-gender-transition-poll

Americans are widely opposed to allowing transgender female athletes to compete on women's and girls' sports teams, and, according to a new NPR/Ipsos poll, are deeply split along partisan lines on questions of transgender rights.

The NPR/Ipsos poll shows that nearly two-thirds of Americans (63%) are opposed to allowing transgender women and girls to compete on teams that align with their gender identity, while 24% overall support that.

Among Democrats, opinion is fairly split: a plurality, 46%, support trans female athletes' right to compete on women's and girls sports teams, while 41% oppose it.

Independent voters oppose trans female athletes right to compete by 3:1 (21% support; 63% oppose).

Among Republicans, support plummets to just 4%, while 88% oppose.​

While 4% is small, it is not insignificant... its 1 in 25

Still, this poll rather shoots down mikegriffith1's "liberals" rant.

So... let's do math. First, let's do some probabilities based on ALL supporters. We've got 46% of Democrats, 21% of Independents, and 4% of Republicans. So if we're looking at the Party of Supporters, we see that:
46% / (46% + 21% + 4%) = 64.8%

So about 65% of the supporters of transwomen in female sports are Democrats.

Now let's extrapolate a bit, because political party doesn't necessarily capture liberal versus conservative leaning. Specifically, it leaves the Independents unaccounted for - some are liberal, some are conservative overall, and there's a lot of guesswork involved. So let's momentarily pretend that the Independents are split between conservative and liberal in such a way that liberal Independents align with the Democrat view, and conservative Independents align with the Republican view, and the 21% supporting Independents is a result of mix.

Short version: Throw out the Independents and only look at Republicans and Democrats as proxies to general conservative versus liberal views.

In that case, we're talking about 46% of "Liberals" and 4% of "Conservatives" supporting. Which means:
46% / (46% + 4%) = 92% of those who support transwomen participating in female sports are "Liberal"

Which supports my perception that... While not all liberals support this view, the vast majority of those who do support it are liberals.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm happy that you and several other likeminded posters here appear to a) know more about, and b) be more expert about, the issue of transgender identity - and its validity (or otherwise) than the actual experts.

You should probably email them and tell them they don't know what they're talking about and they've got it all wrong. I'm sure they'd sit up and take notice.

WHICH actual experts?

 

[Rolfe]

At least this has some references.

https://genderclinicnews.substack.com/p/cracking-the-false-consensus

 

[d4m10n]

This is the kind of thing that really breaks my brain. I mean, it's an easily foreseeable risk, and one that any compassionate person would try to negate. It's disheartening that the virtue signaling and support for one person's feelings overrides any extrapolative thinking and care. I end up depressed about the future of humanity.

Honestly, I think the zeitgeist is shifting on this one, as evidenced by the fact that a reputable paper is willing to publish those pull quotes.

 

[d4m10n]

WHICH actual experts?

Not to mention what validity?

If I tell someone their non-binary identity is valid, does that mean I'm affirming they are neither a man nor a woman but something else, something unknown prior to the invention of Tumblr?

 

[Matthew Best]

World Triathlon has decided to allow transwomen to compete in the female category in their sport.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...ansgender-women-to-compete-in-female-category

 

[lionking]

World Triathlon has decided to allow transwomen to compete in the female category in their sport.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...ansgender-women-to-compete-in-female-category

Another sporting body looking to protect women at an international level, but to sacrifice them at every other level to male bodied transwomen who went through puberty as males.

I do not understand those in this thread who would restrict transwomen at high level competition, but don’t care about serious athletes at other levels. It’s as if their disappointment and failure count for nothing against the selfishness of transwomen who can’t cut it when forced to compete with other biological males.